The Messiness of Grief

Carly OsmanYay. So Kate, before we dive in, i would love to know a little bit about you.

KateSo where do I begin? In a past life, I was a recruiter, had a recruiting agency for many years. And then we had COVID and then my mum died. And I went through a just a horrendous grief journey. i I didn't know what was wrong with me. I thought i thought there was that i thought that I was ill. And I went to the doctor. i I didn't go to doctor because it was COVID. But I spoke to the doctor. they gave me some antidepressants. And I was like, I don't think I'm depressed, but I don't really actually know what's wrong with me. And I literally went on Dr. Google and just typed in my symptoms. And it was like, oh, it's grief. Oh, it was like a weight lifted off my shoulder. Like, oh, I'm grieving. And that's okay. Okay. And so from that moment on, I thought this is my life's work. I literally threw a hand grenade into my life and went, this is it. I have to help other people with grief. I don't ever want anyone to not know that they're grieving and to feel alone with it. And here we are three years later.

Carly OsmanThat's a really interesting point because I think when grief happens, we don't know how to deal with it. because there is no guidebook for grief. There is no rules. How how are you meant to behave? How are you meant to show up? How long are you meant to be doing this? So I'd really love to start with you at the basics. Like, is there a wrong or a white, right way to grieve?

KateWell, I think society would say yes, but no, because because of the complex relationships that you have with people, if it's a bereavement or or a loss from a you know physical human being perspective that you're grieving, but also i think because grief is a loss or a change. So it's pet loss, baby loss, loss of health, loss of finances, loss of a business, divorce, estrangement, empty nesting.

Carly OsmanI can see you in the next two.

KateI mean, it loss is... it's encompasses so much the grief comp possibly copy a manual for it because it's it's not the same grief with each challenge that you go through so there is no right or wrong way to grieve they were healthier coping mechanisms shall we say and for me I did start to eat a lot of food and drink a lot and that was my coping mechanism and and I know you know some people get very heavily involved in exercise or you know there's some isn't coping mechanisms that are better for you and there's some coping mechanisms that that aren't so great but it's it's it's you and how you feel and there's so many layers of emotions as well so it's not just like you're going to be sad there's you know there's anger there's guilt there's shame there's there is obviously the sadness as well but there's so many emotions and so many layers that come with it you can't possibly have a right or wrong way to grieve because it's so different for everyone

Carly OsmanThen why do we think we're doing it wrong?

KateGood question i think i think just because society know even family it's very we're we're not very good with grief in the uk there are some other countries culturally that are much better at it but we tend to want to brush it under the carpet and hope it goes away which is why there's this kind of timeline that people have that aren't you over it by now whatever that means It's kind of other people's expectations that are put on us that that make us feel like we should be grieving differently or doing something different. And because we're not talking about it enough, we don't know how to grieve. Like with me, I didn't even know it was grief. And because I watched four of us siblings all handle it so differently, I thought I was doing something wrong. I thought there was something wrong with me and I thought I was doing something wrong. But I wasn't. I was just grieving very differently because because I was the fourth one in the family, not the first. And and our relationship, so so my grief journey started when my mum died, the firstborn... had a very different grieving experience to me. But of course, we couldn't possibly have had the same relationship with my mum. Therefore, the grieving experience was completely different. But when you were taught when we were both talking to each other, neither one of us could understand the other one's grieving journey because we weren't on it. So...

Carly OsmanThat's really interesting to me. And just that idea that everyone has, even if it's the same person that you're grieving, has a different way of showing up and kind of coming through. How do you find a common language? Is that even possible? Because if you're both grieving for your mum, how do you support each other and also hold space, but also know that you can't get pissed off because someone's doing it differently. is It's just part of it.

KateI think being more grief literate and talking about it more we as a family don't really talk about grief we don't really talk about emotions so it has been an incredibly different journey for me and then going and studying counseling again and and realizing how little i talk about emotions and how i don't really even understand some of the emotions that i'm feeling So it has been a very difficult journey in in a family to talk about it because we still are coming at it from very different kind of sides, shall we say. So if I could give anybody any guidance, it would just be to be open. And I think That's it. We, we, because, because of the way we grieve, we expect other people to grieve like us. And when they don't, we, we just can't get it.

Carly OsmanThank you.

KateBut can't we just say, that's okay. You're grieving your way. I'm grieving my way. Hopefully I'm doing whatever works for me. Hopefully you're doing whatever works for you. and that's okay. But And by not talking about it, we aren't getting the support that we need, even in a in in a family, and let alone external support. But because we're just not understanding it and and therefore perhaps not talking about it, because it can be quite a contentious issue, really, we're just not getting the support that we need. So being open, but that's my that's my main takeaway from from this, you know be open. And if you're feeling a certain way, even if it's 10 years down the line, can you be open about it? because we often try and not to talk about how we're feeling because of other people. But actually, can't we just say, I'm you sad, angry, guilty, whatever the the emotion is, can't we just be honest and therefore open that conversation?

Carly OsmanI think this is really interesting and i I think in the UK we are emotionally totally illiterate and we often know, oh I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm a bit angry, and I might be a bit frustrated.

KateYes.

Carly OsmanBut that's probably the extent of our understanding. So when you talk about grief literacy, is that actually just using words and actually going, how this feeling in my body? What is that emotion and and digging deep into where is that showing up and trying to name what it is?

KateYeah yeah and and it so sounds pretty simple but actually there's a really great tool called the the feelings or the emotions wheel and in the middle is is you know you've got your basics what i thought i was feeling happy be sad angry but then there's layers it actually is it fear that i'm feeling is it distress you know what is it under that that basic feeling that we're taught and really kind of opening and peeling back the layers and really trying to understand and Absolutely everything is stored in the body. And there's some brilliant books out there. The Body Keeps the Score, the grieving The Grieving Body, which is a brilliant book, quite new. And that talks about how grief is stored in the body. And and it is. And subconsciously, consciously, you might not be thinking about something, but subconsciously and and in the body, it's being held on to. So your body remembers the the feelings. So doing a lot of somatic work is really helpful for grief because all those feelings and the deeper feelings that you can't even name because we haven't got the you know this and weve got the words or aren't very good at knowing what our emotions are, they're all being stored. so the more work you can do around the semantics and understanding your body and really trying to pinpoint what is that feeling it isn't necessarily anger what is it and it's it is about literally peeling back the layers to to try and find out what it is that you're actually feeling

Carly OsmanI'd like to kind of pivot slightly and talk about the timelines for grief. So the I find it really striking and also incredibly weird that the UK has such a fixed way of thinking about grief. So you've got three days of statutory bereavement leave for a close family member, which is frankly absolutely ridiculous. But, and also if a person is a friend, that's often not regarded at all. And and as we know, friends often are become family. So That's just completely overlooked. Is there a timeline for grief?

KateNo. Sadly not.

Carly OsmanYes.

KateBecause if so, we'd write a manual and then we'd go, right, today I'm on three months in, this is how I'm going to feel. Sadly not. and because everybody's time and if that because everybody's great because everybody's lost it I do say rightly or wrongly and and other people might disagree with this but I think the first two years are the hardest and the first year you are expecting it to be hard you've got the first of everything and you having to really your your brain is trying to process what's happened and it and it's struggling and it be it takes a lot And you then got the second year where you're moving further away from the event, maybe further the away from the last time that you saw that person. you've had And you were then saying it was last year. There's there's some comfort in saying it was this year when you're then having to start to say, oh, it was a year ago. It was two years ago. That can be really, really heavy. So I have found that in in the work that I do with people, the first two years do tend to be the most difficult. And it isn't the same for everybody. And like I said, there's no manual. So some people you know all handle and cope with grief very differently. But that grieving process for me, I see tends to be a couple of years. And then after that, you have started to integrate the grief. And I think that's the key. And that's That's the acceptance perhaps that people talk about. But for me, it's I'm always going to grieve. I'm always going to love that person or have a very complex relationship with that person or whatever it is. But I'm learning to integrate the grief into my life. And that's the bit where you kind of that's that's for me. That was the kind of the sort of the two year period. Really.

Carly OsmanOkay, so that's when you, you, it just becomes not a shock anymore, or is it still a shock?

KateIt becomes more natural to grieve I think you take the pressure off yourself I still struggle to look at pictures of my mum because my brain still goes can she not be here like it it just still won't really process like she how can she not be here she was here for you know 40 odd years how can she not be here and that's what I talk to talk to a lot of people about that you it it isn't necessary that it changes but it it just becomes it almost becomes okay like Oh, okay, that's how I think. And, and and you know, that hasn't necessarily changed in, what is it now, for three four years? four years But that's okay. i think I think you learn to take the pressure off yourself more than anything.

Carly OsmanFriends have often told me about moments that have completely unexpectedly flawed them. So they might have opened up a message or a WhatsApp group and their mum or dad were in there, but obviously they're no longer around or a piece of post lands on the doorstep for them or something totally ordinary often kind of hits them like a freight train. Can you talk a bit more about what's going on here?

KateYeah. And that's the thing. Again, with like the first year and the firsts, you're kind of thinking to yourself, okay, I've got to get through Christmas. I've got to get through their birthday. I've got to get through my birthday. You kind of have these dates and kind of key, I mean, dates become even bigger and really much more, they figure much more in your life but at these certain dates. but it's the bits around grief that you can't expect, like that bit of post that you were never expecting to to turn up. So you you tend to build your resilience for the things that you're expecting, but it's the it's the unexpected that you can't really plan for. Like you think you see them drive past and then oh and it it takes a while for your brain to catch up and go, well, of course they didn't because they're not here. But you know in your mind, you're still thinking, oh, that that's them. and and and then you know So you're having these kind of, it's like you re-grieve

Carly OsmanAll right.

KateAll the time. It's like, oh, you know, I've got to, my brain's got to catch up and realise that, oh, no, they're not here. It wasn't them. And so there's these, yeah, and, you know, and you like you said, the post or the, you know, seeing in the name in the WhatsApp group and things like that, you know, with there's so many questions like when do you take them out the WhatsApp group? and When do you take their toothbrush away? When do you remove their coat from the front door? is you know And again, everybody manages it so differently. Some people will do it immediately because they they don't want the visual representation. Some people will never remove the coat from the door. you know And again, it doesn't matter because it's what you've got to do, what works for you, where where you take your comfort. That's what you've got to do. So there is some grief that you really can't almost build a resilience to. And that is the grief journey. it I talk about it comes in waves. You know, sometimes it's a tidal wave, like the post that you weren't expecting. And sometimes it's just lapping at the shore because it's always there. And you've kind of built your resilience. You've taken the day off work for your wedding anniversary. So, you you know, you know that it's going to be a particularly difficult day and you kind of you know what you need to do in order to cope with that day. But those smaller things that that you can't, can't cope, can't, can't allow for, can't kind of, aren't, Kate Witteveen- coming that that's the really difficult bit of grief, and i think that's why grief is is so difficult, but all you can do is what you need to do in in the in the moment, you know if you see that name in the WhatsApp take a moment to grieve whatever that looks like for you. Witteveen- You have to kind of cope with the with the moments.

Carly OsmanAnd there's no way to plan ahead for that, knowing that those things. I am a control freak. So for me, I like to know actually what's going to happen, how I'm going react. But actually what I'm hearing from you is you've just got to lean into how you're feeling in that moment and just go with it because actually pushing down the emotions will actually not benefit me in the long run.

KateYes, absolutely. Pushing down the emotions, you're literally literally just kicking the can down the road. grief Grief gets you in the end. And that's that's the trouble with grief. You can't outrun it. You can't go around it. You can't go over it. You have to go through it. And the grieving process is, it's an individual journey, but you have to go through it because eventually it does catch up with you. And it the trouble is sometimes it you know might be 10 years down the line, but you don't even know it's grief that you are struggling with because of the events that happened 10 years previous you're not connecting the dots and it could be a completely different trigger over here that is triggering your grief from from over there so the any advice i can give anybody is talk be open about it get external support, get, you know, get support in the family if you can, if you've got a supportive family. But be open about it and be open about how you're feeling and try, try not to try and push it down because it gets you in the end.

Carly OsmanI'm really interested in this because A lot of peak time, people have very complicated relationships with the person who's died and they don't actually know how to, I suppose, how to react or how to feel. So quite often it's a brushing it off rather than how do you grieve when the relationship is really complicated?

KateYeah and actually most people's relationships are quite complicated and often even if you have a really good relationship with someone you are not only grieving kind of one person you're grieving sort of lots of different relationships so you know you might have a really great relationship with your mum she's also so your best friend and so you're grieving mum and your best friend it's like you're kind of grieving doubly you're kind of grieving for two different roles in your life And I think a complex relationship, you're often grieving for the relationship that you're never going to have with that person. So, you know, it's all well and good talking about great relationships with people. But when when you're grieving a relationship, and that might be estrangement, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a bereavement, but you could be grieving for the relationship that you aren't having and are never going to have. And that that's really difficult because, again, there's so many different emotions wrapped up in that. Is there guilt? Is there shame? Is there you know is there some relief? And then there's there's there's guilt around feeling relieved. And it's so complex. But again, it's about talking about it. it's yeah Again, we're back to that same old talk about it because what's going on in your head isn't necessarily always true. And we're all just big jigsaw puzzles that kind of need to be slotted together and we just need to get what it whatever is in our head. We need to get it out and try and work out what those pieces are and what they look like and try and put them put them together.

Carly OsmanI've heard you speak before around the physical changes that happen in grief. So, and you literally not being the same person immediately after a loss. Are you able to kind of talk to me about what is happening in the body, in the brain during grief?

KateYeah i my own experience with this and i talk to other people a lot about it because we all have our our own different experiences but i lost so much confidence when my mum went and i couldn't really understand it but then i had my own therapy and and it made sense because my mum was my anchor to the world And then she went and I just felt like a carrier bag in the wind being kind of like carried around like over here, I don't really know what i'm doing. And it was an awful feeling. And I think, again, I had panic attacks. I've never had a panic attack in my life. I had a panic attack. I had a racing heart. that There was all sorts of physical symptoms that were coming up. and My jaw was aching. What I hadn't realized was i was grinding my teeth at night. You know, all these things I never really had before. And then over it was quite over a long quiet period over quite a quite a long period of time, but I noticed all these different symptoms and it it all basically worked back to grief because, as I've said before, the body is storing everything. And there's all sorts of physical symptoms. You get really dehydrated because you're in tears all the time. But of course, you know you don't really think about it. So you kind of don't really realise that you're dehydrated. Headaches, like I say, the jaw ache. Your immune system is is low and compromised because you're processing so much and because of this grief that you're going through. So you pick up colds and chest infections. And you you may notice that you you pick up a lot and that you're quite ill. when you're grieving but again you're you're not necessarily thinking oh this is grief because you're thinking you know i've got to get another chest infection but actually it can be connected back to grief joint aches there's there's just there's so much but again we don't really talk about it so we're not connecting how we're feeling in our body to the fact that we are grieving

Carly OsmanDo you ever think we become the same person after grief? Do we go back to who we were before or or are we different?

KatePersonally, I don't think we do. I i am a changed person and most of the people that i work with we often talk about how we've changed, how you if your outlook on life changes. i mean, I watched someone die. There is there is no greater privilege in some respects, but also nothing that is more final than death. and When you've seen that and you realize, is my am I doing what I want to do in my life? Because when that's me, whatever that looks like, whatever form, you know, whatever that takes when my expiry date happens, have I done what I wanted to do? Have I been the person that I want to be? And and and i wasn't and that's what that's why I changed everything, because I want to become the person that I want to become, and I wanted to change my whole life in able to be to be able to help others. But you often find that you might be a bit more angry. You might you certainly don't kind of s suffer the small things, because you just realise what's important and what isn't. it could definitely definitely change you as a person and and you don't really go back to to how you were how can you your whole life has changed and i think and i think again if we talk about it and and we we take the pressure off ourselves and go you know what that's okay

Carly OsmanDo you think enough people do or do you think enough people force that down and and and would dismiss that and say, of course, I'm the same person. It's just it's just something that's happened. And actually, by doing that, they're actually causing themselves more harm.

KateYeah, yeah. Again, I mean, we talked about this three-day, you talked about the three-day bereavement leave and I laughed because it's just ridiculous. Three days, you you haven't even started to process, you you've got all the sadmin that you have to do and it takes months and oh there's so much to deal with. three days is not enough. But a lot of people will want to go back to work quite quickly because they need the focus and they want to go back to it. But that can be really quite difficult because if you've changed, your company is expecting you to slot back into that role, doing exactly the same as you did, and you've changed. So you're also expecting yourself to kind of have the same productivity, do the same, want to do the same. And I do think a lot of people once they go through a grieving process end up changing careers and lives to do more worthwhile work you kind of once you take the trappings of the the financial side of things away and you realize actually i want to do work that is over here that looks like this and does this or i want to go traveling or i want to start a business or you know it changing your life so that it it suits you rather than kind of other people and and and i think that's the big change and i think that's why it's so difficult to to go back into that job and kind of do the same but you know absolutely there are some people that that do again it's it's also different some people may say so that say that they haven't changed and and it hasn't hasn't affected them in it you know in that way and they're happy to kind of carry on but again that's okay there's no right or wrong

Carly OsmanThere's something I really want to talk about, which is preparedness. And I think people think about this privately, especially when you know someone is going to die. But we don't talk about it publicly, that the fact that someone I know and love is at the end of their life and I'm going to, I know that this is something that's going to happen and it's coming up.

KateNo.

Carly OsmanHow can i prepare for that how can i prepare for the fact that i know it's happening i don't know how long it's going to be i don't know how to feel i i'm feeling multitude of emotions is there anything i can do

KateYeah, anticipatory grief is really hard because you almost grieve twice. You grieve in in anticipatory grief and then when they go, you think, okay, well, I've been grieving, so surely it's not going to be quite such a shock. And then it's a shock as well. So you kind of get this sort of double whammy, really, double whammy of grief. Oh, joy. But you do you do start to prepare yourself as best you can. You try and build that resilience. Yeah. But it it is really it's really difficult because at the end of the day, you don't want that person to go And so it it is a it's a anticipatory grief is is a really interesting topic, actually. And again, something that i don't think we talk about enough because it could be dementia. It isn't necessarily an illness. You know you need to start to lose that person before they're gone, but they're still physically here. So you have the guilt around, well, I'm grieving for them, but they're still here. And there's, again, so many emotions that that come with this anticipatory grief. So what I wish I had done more of is take more photos. Lots of people talk about not having their voice in their head or losing the voice. So if you can, you know more videos, more photos. but it's It's about trying to think what you might miss and it's quite difficult to do but then what what is it you're going to miss when they're not here and how can you help that now? What can you do now in order to to not have those regrets when when they're gone? So yeah, there's there's there's many people that i talk to who say, oh, I wish I'd got more videos or I wish I'd got more photos of just the two of us, not you know not necessarily all the family but you know just us. and It's about thinking about what what is it that you might need in the future. But, of course, that is quite difficult to do, I realise.

Carly OsmanThere's another side of anticipatory, it's like how we say it, anticipatory, can never speak, relief anticipatory grief, which is around relief. And I've heard someone talk about this and and I thought it was incredibly very brave and vulnerable, the fact that they'd even called it out.

KateYeah.

Carly OsmanAnd they said, my mum died and I was glad. And then there was a lot of backlash and shock and people say, I can't believe you've said that. But actually for me, I think it was incredibly, incredibly triumphant and incredibly amazing that they had. Can you talk to me a bit about that feeling?

KateYeah yeah yeah there's there's a there's often a lot of relief and then we don't often name it because it does sound how can you say that and all the people who are missing their mums of course go what you know i want my mum back and and there's you over here you know kind of relieved but that could be for many many different reasons couldn't it could have been you know for whatever reason it could be relief for them as in they are no longer in pain you know whatever The relief might be for that person, but it also might be for the person who is grieving. Relief for them that they don't have to have them in their life. The pressure has taken off them. They don't have to try and think about the complex relationship. They don't have to try and think, I wish we had a relationship when we don't, you know, whatever whatever it looks like. And again, it's about naming it, isn't it? And absolutely being honest with it.

Carly OsmanThank you.

KateAnd it it's about before you reply to someone's comment who has put out that they're relieved, It's about thinking, why why has that triggered something in me? what What's that brought up for me? And why why am i not okay with that? And I think if we all just took a few moments before we reply to things and just think, hang on, what's what's this for me? Where is this coming from for me? Sometimes we might be a bit kinder with our with our comments. But, yeah, absolutely, there's often a lot of relief when someone's gone. And it's naming it and being okay with it, isn't it? You've got your reasons.

Carly OsmanYeah. The last thing I'd like to kind of touch on is how do you get on the next step and moving forward? And I think it's probably a lot of friends have told me about this, that they feel guilty the first time that they've laughed or the first time that they've booked a holiday or be truly joyous about something. And they've they've been in the moment, they've been very happy, and then suddenly they go, oh, but I don't know if I should be feeling like this. I shouldn't. How do we give ourselves permission to move on?.

KateLiterally like that. I give myself permission. And you do, the first time you laugh, you go, oh, oh i look I laughed and they're not here. And how can I laugh? And how can I be happy when they're when they're not here? But actually, you do have your life to live. And I think sometimes you can feel like you aren't owing them enough. youre If you're not in pain, then that means that you didn't love them enough. And there's this kind of, I must wear this

Carly OsmanThank you.

KateWear this guilt or anger or sadness or whatever because it it shows how much they loved them but actually can you not just carry it in your heart do you have to be in pain in order to show how much you love them and you need to live for you what is it that lights you up and there's a brilliant theory about continuing bonds and and that's about integrating that person into your life still just because they've gone so what does that look like is that cooking their favorite recipe is that creating new traditions as as a family. you know what What is it, what can you do, you know creating a memory bear out of some of their pieces of clothing? and what What is it that you are going to be able to connect to journaling about them? Whatever it looks like, but you create that continuing bond with them. So just because you laughed doesn't mean that you have forgotten them out of your life, and it doesn't mean that you're not continuing that bond with them, because they're you're integrating them into your life in some way. And lots of people need a permission slip to go, you know what? It's okay. You are allowed to live your life and and do what you want to do whilst also grieving. And I think that's the bit that we that we come to. them The work that I do is basically saying to people, it's okay. It's okay you're feeling like this. It's okay. It doesn't matter if it's day one, day 365, 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line, whatever it looks like. It's okay that you feel like this. It is your grief. It is your grief journey. but how would you like your life to look? What is it that you would like to do? And how do you want to create these continuing bonds so that you you know yourself, that you love that person and that you are bringing them into your life, but that you are also doing what you want to do?

Carly OsmanThank you, Kate, for this conversation and also the work that you're doing.

KateThink it's exciting when we actually talk about

Carly OsmanIt's just so important. And I think collectively as a society, be so much better when we actually talk about talk about this.

KateYes yes just talk about it i just you know we we can need we've got so much work to do with these three days bereavement policy and where do we even begin with that you know your best friend died and and that it's not that's not close family member is it so what so you can't i can't be grieving over them you know pet loss baby loss you know people go back to work and people around them don't even know that they've lost a baby and there's so much and at the end of the day Yes, we're workers, yes, we're employees, yes, we're employers, but aren't we just human beings? And can't we just be human beings with each other and understand that loss happens and understand that people need time and they need support and they need to be helped through really difficult situations and we just need to get better at talking about it.