Other People's Opinions

Carly OsmanRight. Amazing. Hi, Heidi. Welcome. I'm really excited about this conversation today because it stemmed from a chat that we were having and... It was that realization that we are so deeply conditioned to every part of our lives to pretty much every step of the way. So before we dive into that, I want to first go who are you

HeidiIt so yeah thank you thank you for having me on and yes it was a great chat that we had that i'm looking forward to kind of following on today so yep my name is heidi callip i am a marketing director by trade at the moment i'm doing some fractional work i've worked for you know lots of big companies and lots of small companies and yeah i'm kind of midway through my career i guess And then more recently, I've set up a sub stack and slash community to start talking about it's called the second half. And it's where we start talking about actually, as we get older, what does the second half of our lives? What are the second half of our careers look like? And how can we move them in ways that feel more real and more authentic to the lives we want to live? So yes, that is something new that I've started working on that I will talk a little bit more about today.

Carly OsmanAmazing. So I'm really interested in this pivot and this change and this kind of realisation when you suddenly go, oh my gosh, the life I'm building isn't the life that I actually want to be living. But let's kind of take a step back and say, how did we get here? Because as women, there is a right path and I'm going to use the right path in inverted commas but actually I really shouldn't because it is the right path that we're given you've got to go to job get go to uni get a job buy a house have a family climb the ladder and look after the kids do this do this and when did you become aware that there was so much judgment and meant to be's that were impacting how you were moving through your life

HeidiWould say throughout the time, there's been different times where I've been affected by different pieces of judgment or i've thought, oh I'm not fitting in with the rules or what have you. And I wouldn't say that really altered me and the path of my life much in the beginning. But I think probably quite late on, maybe in my late 30s, did I kind of realise that I wasn't being true to myself and I was following a path that either I'd set for myself or there were expectations that people wanted it from me. And I guess it's that kind of reflective time, you getting a little bit older, you've, you know, you've been in the workplace for a long time or you've just been in the world for a long time and you start to really take away from the values that your parents gave you or you know that the society that you grew up in and you started to kind of make up your own mind and be a little bit have a little bit more courage of your own convictions so I think it was probably my mid to late 30s when I realized that I wasn't maybe living in the way that I wanted to in the most authentic way and I think where I look at that. I went years ago when I was 34, I went traveling, i came back, it was a year off, you know, and people were like, what are you doing? This is crazy. Took a year off. And then I came back and went straight back into a very similar job to the one I'd left a year before. And I just had this life-changing experience. And I thought, oh yeah, and this is this is fine. This is what needs to happen. I've had a year off. I should be grateful for that. And now let's go back and do what I was doing before. And surprise, surprise, very quickly, I started to feel uncomfortable again and feel like, oh, hang on a minute. Why have I just had that? spent a load of money, took a time out. This was a really big decision for me. And I've come back and I've just come back doing the same thing as I did before. And when I started to talk to people about that, friends, family, you know, people at work. It was all like, oh, but you've had your time, you know, now you're back in the world work. This is just how it is. And there was something really uncomfortable for people about the fact that I wasn't comfortable about that. And I'd taken the, I'd taken the the route that, You know, everyone should, yeah I should have a job. I should have a good job. but This is a career I've worked for. I should stick with this. And I probably continued on that for four or five years before I did anything about it, essentially.

Carly OsmanSo why do you think people have these shoulds? Like what is fueling them? Because you're starting to question it and go, oh, hang on a second. Then there might be a different way. I don't feel good. But there's a lot of pressure that comes from everyone else. And do you think that's explicit? Like how where are they being fed this information that it's got to look a certain way?

HeidiI think, sadly, vast amount of it is just implicit. I think we're all living in a structure. i don't think people even know they're doing it anymore.

Carly OsmanYou

HeidiIt's so ingrained in our psyche. It's just part of society. We don't tend to question things all the time. you know it's We don't question why we think things. We don't question why that doesn't appear normal. We just... our words, our communications, it can be littered with these judgments that I think we've had for no reason at all. And i think actually as a society in the last 10, 20 years, who knows, we've started to have more discourse about, oh, well, you know, the patriarchy or, you know, why is a woman's place in the home? Like all these things that we just thought were the way they were, but actually people have started pushing their boundaries and what have you. And I think, yeah, these judgments can be really pervasive. And it can can sometimes feel like you are not normal, but actually once you start just asking your questions about why is that not normal?

HeidiWhat's normal? I think it becomes a lot easier, but yeah, I don't want to, you know, especially parents, parents like, oh, we should be doing things this way, or shouldn't you be looking at it this way? and they're just from a different time. And we've just all grown up with this constant societal hidden rules that we all need to abide by but once you start asking why and breaking down those rules it seems that no one's got an answer so actually then they're like yeah okay I don't know why think that you go forth and prosper and then people get quite supportive after that I think

Carly OsmanI think this is really interesting because I've been thinking a lot at the moment about are we as women actually making conscious decisions or are we managing reactions to choices? And I ground this self in a personal experience. So I made a conscious decision to have one baby. I've got a one and done philosophy to life. I have had so much scrutiny about that and not in an ill intentioned way. There's just been a lot of, oh, your child is going to get so lonely. What's going to happen when you get old and gray? Oh, that's really selfish. You should definitely have to. And I've kind of gone, have? And then that I had a wobble after after that. And I was like, oh, God, my poor kid. And I went on a spiral of Google internet studies. But actually, science has shown only children are not any worse off than ones with siblings. So that made me feel better. But then I thought, am I going to make a decision based on the outcome of my life, based on other people's reactions? And And that for me was this sudden wake up call that I went, oh shit, I'm not just doing this with my child choices.

HeidiYeah.

Carly OsmanI'm doing this with my career. I'm doing this with how much I'm willing to share or push back.

HeidiYeah. Yeah. and it's And it's crazy, isn't it? And it's, I mean, I made a decision. I told my mum when I was 12 that I didn't want to have children. and that i wasn't going to change my mind on that and I never have and I'm I've never had a wobble I'm you know it was just part of my truth that this is it I'm just I didn't want to have children and I've been very open with people that I've been in relationships with that I'm not going to change my mind that hasn't stopped people my whole life asking me oh what about now what about now oh come on come on come on surely surely and even i got married at 39 to someone who was 42 at the time. I'm now 46. People have started to stop asking now, which is great. But even then it was, oh, well, now you're getting married. Okay. What has that got to do with the fact of whether I wanted to children or not? And, you know, whilst the discourse is now a lot more open and people are discussing it, and actually it's none of anyone's business whether I decided to have children or not, whether I have children or not, like it's a very... dangerous conversation to have in lots of ways and actually it's it's none of people's business whether or not you know whether someone's going have kids or not or why they don't have any but I've always been fiercely proud of the fact that you want to talk to me about why I don't have children let's talk about that like because it was a conscious decision I made and I'm happy to talk to you about how sure I am of that decision but Yeah, it's this judgment of what a woman should be doing with her time is so constricting. And it's but actually when you speak to all the women in your life, all the women in my life have got very different views. Some have got no kids. Some have got one kid. Some have got five kids. Who cares? do what you like. You know, it's your life. And, you know, you do whatever makes you happy, I think.

Carly OsmanDo you think this comes back and there's another thing that I've been thinking about at the moment and it stemmed from I've been to a conference and it was all around being an unlikable woman and this idea of being liked and I am a recovering people pleaser so i care deeply, deeply, deeply about what people think about me.

HeidiSame.

Carly OsmanI'm now wondering if inadvertently I've taken on this condition and gone through life because I'm like, well, I've got to be seen as being the nice girl, the one who's palatable. I i don't want to rock the boat in any way. And actually there's this whole, everything that I've done is being underpinned by how can I be as likable as possible, which is serving absolutely no one.

HeidiYeah, yeah. Couldn't agree more. And yes, you know, yes, we can talk in stereotypes and I'm going to speak from my experience and that's all I can speak from. But I think that, yeah, nurture has a large part to play. And yet, in my experience, we are all deeply conditioned to be nice girls, like amenable, acquiescent, supportive, And there are study there are many studies that have shown how girls mask their true feelings from a very, very young age. And obviously, we know the language used between girls and boys. So girls are bossy, boys are strong-willed. You know, it's all very well documented. And that's kind of the nurture piece, I think. But what we're starting to talk about as women now, kind of especially and in the workplace or at conferences like the one you've just been to, It's not all about nature. And then nature has has a guiding hand. And when nature comes through and kind of bursts onto the scene, I think that's where the friction is really created. And that's where we have to make choices. And like I say, for me, yes, I'm an absolute people pleaser, but that was in no way going to extend to me having a baby I didn't want. So I can be really sure of and have courage of some convictions and you know i don't I don't care what people think about that. that's That's my life decision. But then in other areas of my life, i. e. work, I was really concerned about what people thought and I wanted to be seen as, you know, the person who was really easy to work with and get on with. And over time, that just ended up hurting me more than anyone else and, you know, increasing my workload. And I wasn't getting the things I should. I was watching other people get ahead of me because they were able to put their foot down and say no or I'm not going to do that. That's, you know, not my job description. But yeah, I'd been brought up to don't rock the boat, be really lovely. you know girls should be Girls should be nice and supportive. And yeah, the older I've got, that's not got me anywhere, really. That's a lie. That's a lie. I think in the UK in particular, we don't talk about how what a skill it is to be easy to work with. I think we've all worked with difficult people and it just makes things really difficult. It is good to be someone... that is easy to work with. It is good to be someone who oils the wheels and greases the conversation and is a good communicator. It is good to be that person, but not when it starts encroaching on your own happiness or your own success.

Carly OsmanI love that you used the word nice there because I've got a real problem with the word nice because I think nice to me is in the camp of nice girls, nicely behaved.

HeidiYep. Yep.

Carly OsmanWhat I'm trying to reframe it is I'm kind. I'm a kind person but I don't necessarily have to be nice because nice for me feels like I'm dropping my boundaries and I'm i'm going to be more of that pushover rollover but I think we all need more kindness and i can have kindness with integrity.

HeidiYes. That's, yeah, I think that's a brilliant way of saying it is, yeah, sometimes the kindest thing to do is have a difficult conversation. Sometimes the kindness for yourself, kindness for another person. Sometimes the kindest thing to do is, yeah, with your integrity is to stand there and say, I can't do this anymore or I'm this, I just can't carry on. And I think people have said to me in the past that when they want to change career or when they want to have a big change in their life, particularly when they have other dependents, so when they have a partner or when they have children or when they've got ageing parents who depend on them, they felt that it's very, very selfish to make a decision that's purely about them, whether that's take a pay cut and do something else, whatever that is. But I think... Being open and having that kind but conversation, as you say, with kindness and integrity is keeping your integrity close to your heart, but moving forward with kindness. But yeah, not everyone needs to be, you don't need to be everything to everyone all the time because that's not kindness to yourself either.

Carly OsmanI'm 41 and I'm now living in a stage where a lot of friends and lot of people in my world are suddenly starting to question the life that they're building and and how they've got to this point. And I'm really interested in learning bit more about the work that you're doing and what I'm coining as the midlife reawakening it's when people suddenly or maybe we should call it a reckoning where people suddenly go hang on a second I've got 40 50 hopefully years ahead of me how do I make this count can you talk to me about what you're building and and how did it come about in the first place

HeidiYeah Yeah, sure. So I was having this wobble, I'd say late 30s, where I just felt like I'd worked 20 years for a career that I wasn't getting any joy from anymore. It wasn't kind of serving me in a way that made me happy anymore. And I was constantly thinking about other things. What what else might make me happy? But there was that whole disappointment. I have worked 20 years for this and now I'm here. It's not really hitting all the notes I expected it to hit. And at that time, I started looking at who was around me and I'd seen some women who who were in my network who had made a career change midlife. And I started to have coffee with those people and I wanted to hear how they'd done it, what was difficult about it and what their lives were like now.

Carly OsmanThank

HeidiAnd it was a real eye opener for me. not only that they'd achieved something that I didn't know how to achieve and they had I had lots to learn from these people, but also just how happy they are now. And like you say, how they're living their own truths and their authentic lives. And for some people, that was just a shift into another area of the business they were already in. For some, it was throwing everything up in the air and starting their own business and running away and doing something completely different. Since I've started looking for people to talk to about this, i can find I've found so many more and everyone's so excited to talk about it. So yes, I've started a Substack where I'm talking about my experience, but as part of that, I'm also doing a How I Did It newsletter piece, which is where I'm interviewing women who have done it, and a few men, and a few men, who have made these life changes. And some some of them, are you know there's a teacher into travel consultant, there's a senior events producer into calligrapher. like There's all sorts of different people. But what it's all coming back to is Everyone's been dissatisfied at some point when they get to their mid-career or their mid-30s. Things start to feel a little bit weird. And i think you know we're in a very privileged position, actually, to say, oh, I'm not happy. I want to make change. There's lots of people in the world who for financial reasons or whatever reasons, can't sit here and say, I'm going to make a big change. like They just have to get on. we're in We're in a very privileged position to be able to look at the world around us and say, actually, this isn't suiting me. Let's see what I can do to change it. But it's not just women. It's everyone. and I think there is a wider piece in society around how we've been sold a dream that is, you know, go to school, do well, go to university, get a job, have a career. And guess what? When you're 60 or ish, You get to retire and enjoy this luxury of sitting around and doing whatever you like. And that dream just isn't there anymore. House prices, pensions, you know, the economy, world peace, all of those things. That's just not a future we can rely on anymore. And people are looking to actually live more authentic lives now rather than wait for utopia that might not turn up.

Carly OsmanSo do you think it's part dissatisfaction and but also part preservation? Or is it something completely different, which is much more around unlock potential? I mean, that seems very three lofty, very lofty. but Do you think it's wait if you were to pin it or is it each said situation? It's one or potentially some of those.

HeidiI think, yeah, every situation is different. And I think what I'm hearing is all of those things in one measure or another. For some people, it might be complete disenfranchisement. For others, it might be, you know, I just feel a like I'm worth more and actually I want to unlock something that I used to do as a child. You know, where's the fun in my life gone? And I think that's the crux of it, that actually we're missing a lot of connection. We've put so much into our careers and being parents and looking after aging parents. We've got so many demands on our time that when we're at work for 40 hours a week, we feel so constrained by that. And then we go into our normal lives and actually there's constraints on that too. And basically as humans, we're just not having a nice time. And people think because you're at work 40 hours a week, what have you, and that feels really forced on you, that they have to change work. And actually work isn't the thing that you necessarily need to change altogether. i think if you can find something outside of work that lifts you up and opens any untapped potential, so I love to draw, but i haven't drawn since I was a child, but if you can take an hour or two hours a week and do something that isn't productive, that no one's going to check on you for, or give you a grade over, or have to have a development conversation about, that can free up all sorts of lovely parts of your brain where all of a sudden you're not being held to these standards anymore, a standard that you have to hit. And I think as adults, we lose that. We don't have any downtime. We don't have any pure joy moments. And once you start bringing those in, everything else actually feels a lot better.

Carly OsmanI think that's really fascinating. And there's two areas that I would really like to explore a bit more, which is the first change can happen, not just in the big grand gestures. You don't have to run away from marriage. You don't have to quit your job. You can actually just bring in hobbies and fun on the side. And then the second one, I've got credible mind blank. So we'll just go with the first one for now. And then I'll think about it.

HeidiAnd so actually I'm about to release how I did it with a friend of mine, Laura, who I used to work with and she's now runs her own business. And she was saying that she always knew she'd run her own business. She always knew there was no other future for her, but she also knew that her business would be so much better if she learnt first and she spent, I don't know,

Carly OsmanOkay.

Heidi20, well, no, not even 20 years, 15 learning about stuff, about business, being in jobs that maybe she hasn't enjoyed or that every single one of them, she's like, I'm learning, I'm learning. Or she'll be in this job, I want to learn X. And then she got made redundant and she was like, great, okay, that's the kick up the arse I needed, I'm ready. And she started her business the next day. And it's very successful from the off. And it's like, she was using her downtime

HeidiAnd her work time in a way that was contributing to the future. And I think if you can reframe why you're doing things and how you feel about the things that you're doing, that can be really useful as well. The whole, I want to completely change my career and run off to the hills and do something completely different. It's terrifying and for some it's the only option, but for most of us it's just about... and that's two but That's too extreme. That's too extreme because there's lots in our in the lives that we've built and we've spent time and energy building these lives. There's lots that we love. So it's about understanding yourself a bit more, reframing what you do have and what you do want and then moving forward in a way that's going to get you one step closer to that piece of happiness.

Carly OsmanAnd then do you think it's possible to get those fulfillments and talking about a bit more about the hobbies? And you mentioned the calligraphy and the the fact you're writing again and exploring this passion. Do you think that's having and then an incremental increase on your work life?

HeidiYes, definitely. think It puts things into perspective. So when you've had a rough yeah if you've had a rough day and everyone has them, absolutely.

Carly OsmanYeah.

HeidiAnd it's been a bit full on. And then I go and say to my husband, I'm just off for a couple of hours. I'm going some calligraphy. Calligraphy for me is super mindful. You've got people think you do it with a big flourish, but it's actually really slow practice. You have to do it as slowly as possible. And you can't think about anything else. And at the end of it, I'm not very good. At the end of my two hours, I can look back and be either look at it and go, well, that's a bit enough. Or I can look at it and go, look what I've achieved. And no one's going to mark it and no one's going to see it. But I've spent two hours, you know, probably with some music and a lovely cup of tea, just on my own, just letting my brain be happy. And that means that when I go back to work tomorrow, i haven't had all that. haven't stressed about it all night. i haven't thought about it. I'm not already, you know, a number 10 out of 10 of unsatisfied. Tomorrow's a new day and I've been able to clean the slate and then go back into work the next day with a bit more perspective. And I found that super useful to, yeah, understanding what makes me happy and what drives me. Because what used to drive us in our 20s and our thirty s you know kind of ambition or competition just doesn't drive me anymore. What does drive me is, you know, creativity. And I'd say at work, because I've been able to get those things out of my head and use a creative part of my brain that I wasn't using before, I think my work is is better. I'm more creative at work. I come up with more creative solutions. I've got a clearer mind when I talk to people about, you know, i'm much more... even when it comes to my response to things than I used to be. And I think it just makes me an all round better employee.

Carly OsmanIt's kind of the antithesis to the performative optimised society culture message that we are ladded in day in day. I love that thing that you just said. No one's going to judge me. I'm not goingnna be marked out of 10. It's crap. I know it's crap. Doesn't matter. It's crap. Because, and I'm really guilty about this. I i took up painting and I've also taken up pottery because I'm like, right. But my first impression is I can make money out of this. This is, this is, this is going to be a new revenue stream.

HeidiYep.

Carly OsmanI am diabolical, but I had high hopes and expectations going into it. And when I was shit, I felt genuinely disappointed. and

HeidiYeah.

Carly OsmanI think I need to reframe that you can try things and experiment. And it's about injecting more play, isn't it, into it? Like, we don't have any play. i I've lost my silliness. I've lost my fun. I've lost that giggle. And I would look back at photos like 20 years ago and that... head back laugh where you're just, your chest is open and free. I'm I can't remember the last time I laughed like that.

HeidiYeah. Yeah. But the last time you laugh like that was probably when you were with a group of people and you hadn't got a care in the world and you found something collectively hilarious. And when and kids can be great teachers and when you look at kids and they're doing a thing.

Carly OsmanYeah.

HeidiWhether it be painting or playing football or whatever it is, they don't care if they're any good at it. And in fact, the joy of it, for you know, painting is is coming home and saying, look what I did

Carly OsmanThank

HeidiLook what I did. This is this is how much fun I had today. I painted this or I got really muddy at football. You don't then say to them, oh well, let's mark that out of 10, put it on the fridge and decide how good it was compared to your previous stuff and if you're moving forward. And then let's have a development chat about what you're to next week. That's just not. So why are we doing that to ourselves when we want to paint or draw or join a dance club?

Carly OsmanThanks

HeidiOr my mum joined tap dancing in her 60s, something she'd always wanted to do.

Carly OsmanOh, I love that.

HeidiAnd then when she retired, she was so embarrassed by it. And she's not very good because I've seen her. God love her. but she couldn't care less. She is having the time of her life. And here she is in her, well, she's now in her 70s, but she opened up a whole new community of friends that she didn't know beforehand. All because she was so brave as to say, i don't care if I'm any good at this, I just want to do it. And I just, we need a bit more of that in our lives, I think.

Carly OsmanAnd going back to then the topic that we started with, which was judgment, it's releasing that judgment and expectation about going, I don't care if you think I'm crap or I'm good, or and I've got to stop judging myself on genuinely being objectively crap and just enjoy it.

Heidi. Yeah. Just enjoy. We're animals at the end of the day. if it makes us laugh, if it makes us happy and it's not hurting anyone else, crack on. And I also find that we talked before about whether women are kind of in a box, whether we put women in a box and actually women are explainable. So that's really comfortable for everybody. And I guess because I, I didn't conform like I didn't get married at the right time and I didn't have children want I think people have always found it quite difficult to put me in a box sometimes but I'm not and so people either find me really confusing or really interesting and as I've got older I've just lost the people that find me confusing because they're confusing they're they're kind of looking at me and furrowed brows and Heidi are you doing I don't need that negativity in my life thanks so I tend to try and surround myself with people that find me interesting and that I find interesting.

Carly OsmanOkay.

HeidiAnd, you know, i just want to be curious if someone comes to me and says, oh I'm going to. I'm going to quit my job and go to Antarctica for four months and then I'm going to go and draw pictures of penguins. Brilliant. Why? Let's talk about that. What's making you do that? What you love about penguins? Oh, my you been to Antarctica before? I'd much rather be the person that asks encouraging, positive, exciting questions and learn something about the world than be the person that goes, well, that's odd. I don't know why you're doing that. And I just think that's where way more interesting conversations come out is when you're curious and open and yeah, allow people to show you their their fun, authentic selves.

Carly OsmanBut even more than just interesting conversations interesting elements of life happen the unexpected twists and turns and pivots they come in and my one of my heroes is cindy gallop like i've seen her talk lots of time i'm an absolute fan i would say girl i don't like that phrase i'm a fan person of cindy gallop and she says something around interesting people do interesting things then interesting things happen as a result and i've now got that in the center of my personal vision board because the more weird and wonderful and out there things that i decide to say you know what it's against what everyone says i should be doing

Heidi. Yeah.

Carly OsmanFuck it i'm gonna experiment i'm gonna i'm gonna try it and see how it it fits for size then it opens up other doors and then things happen and then you suddenly find yourself in conversations that you never expected

HeidiYeah, like once you've done one hard thing or once you've challenged yourself to do one hard thing, everything else becomes so much easier. But I think also realizing that it's not the Middle Ages. You're not going to be burnt at the stake. The townspeople are not going to be chasing you through the street with a, you know, with a wooden stick because you made a a decision that other people men necessarily don't understand. You might get a couple of raised eyebrows, but I love the raised eyebrows. So I'm here for that. But yeah, we as a you know we are animals and we are but a a group being and we are worried what the group will think. But 99 times out of 100, the group doesn't think anything. like We are giving way too much importance at what other people think and all what matters is what you think and what your closest inner circle have to think, you know.

Carly OsmanThat's a trade.

HeidiYes, we care about their opinions, but they're just opinions. Ultimately, end of the day, we just care what we think. We can't be worrying about Sarah or Bob down the road who, you know, might not like it Who cares? It's not even like I don't like it.

HeidiMost of the time it's just jealousy. They don't understand it, but a lot of the time they wish they were they were you or they were doing the things that you're doing. a bit of an anecdote, years ago, I finished my English degree, decided to be an accountant. Let's not go into why I thought that was a good idea. Hated it, went back to university do a master's. Everyone at the time was like, are you sure? You've just left university, this is a bit odd. But I was adamant it was the right thing for me. Met a girl who was probably mid-twenties, 26 maybe, straight A student, got a first in business at university. As soon as she left university, she went to work full time in the call centre that she'd been working in part time to put herself through university. No judgment on the fact that she's working in a call centre. But give it three, four years later, she's now manager of that call centre. And I tell her that I jacked it all in and went back to university because I didn't feel I'd made the right decision. And she said, oh my God, I'd love to be able to do that. I wish I could do that. that That sounds like the most amazing thing, but I can't now. I can't now. And I was like, well, why not? You know, you've you don't have a mortgage. You don't have children. You're not married like this. If you're going to throw everything up and start again, now now's the time. and she but she her mindset was, I can't, I can't, I can't. And I don't I don't know that girl anymore. But I'd be interested to see where she ended up.

Carly OsmanDo you think that's kind of cost sunk cost fallacy where I've invested the time and I've made this decision so I've got to tough it out? Like i I grew up in a household which was keep calm, carry on, put a smile on your face, just keep pressing forward.

HeidiYes i think there's an element of that you know and wouldn't it be a shame wouldn't it be a shame if you change your mind now all that work what a shame but isn't it a shame then to lead the rest of your life doing something you're not happy with because of a decision you made when you were 17 18 19 like what a shame that's this that's where the shame is like we only get one life and I just think spending it doing something that you really don't want to do that's that's where the upsetting piece Maybe she's super happy.

Carly OsmanYeah.

HeidiMaybe she's reframed things for herself. She's stopped thinking the grass is greener and she's actually you know planting flowers on her side of the fence, which is also a brilliant thing to do. and I hope she has. But i think when you know in your gut that something is is wrong, work to change it and there's no shame in saying I've gone down a bit of a path that I didn't expect and actually doesn't make me happy. There is no shame in turning around or getting a shovel and just creating a new path. There's no shame in any of that.

Carly OsmanDo you think that's where, if we kind of move it to actionable steps that people could take, do you think that's where it starts? It's a power of the reframe.

HeidiYes, I think it's understanding yourself and understanding why you feel the way you feel. So what is making you unhappy or unsatisfied? what What is that? And that's really hard and that can take a long time. I think trying to then look objectively at your position and understanding actually do I want to throw the baby out of the bath water? Like, do I just want to completely blow up my life with a hand grenade and go and do something else? Or actually, can I make some small tweaks? And I think starting with the small tweaks and see if that helps is way easier than, yeah, blowing everything up and running to Costa Rica and living your life in happiness in in a hut in the hills. <unk> And also it's way more sustainable. So to look at the little things that bring you joy. And once you've done those little things, everything else seems way more manageable. And you can take the next step and the next step And if the next step is, you know, a year down the line, no, I've made my decision. going to stick a hand grenade in my life and run away. at least you know you've done it for the right reasons. But I think a lot of people go straight to, i need to change everything. When actually you only need to change one or two things and things will get better. straight away and that is around mindset and reframing things and taking a long hard look at yourself and being clear and honest with yourself about what makes you happy.

Carly OsmanAmazing. Thank you, Heidi.

HeidiOh thank you, this has been joyful.