Redundancy

Carly OsmanJared, tell me a little bit about yourself.

JarrodAll right. So I've done these before and I apologize. Tell you about myself. Well, have been easy if you just listened to my entire conversation with my therapist yesterday, that might be quicker. because I pay him to listen to me talk about myself. My name's Jared. I'm a dad, husband, former advertising senior suit. I've worked London, Singapore, Australia. i now live in London with my amazing family, my gorgeous son, my amazing wife. And for the last two years, i haven't been working in advertising. which took a while to say out loud. it was asked about six months ago, hey, what do you do you know when you meet someone new? And it was the first time I went, nothing. And he thought I was rich as in, no, don't do anything. And really I was like, no, no, don't have a job. Whereas before I was like, oh, work in advertising. still saying that I did and I don't anymore. So I'm sure we'll we'll get into that a little bit deeper. But I play a lot of golf and I'm an unbelievable housewife. I'm an unbelievable housewife. Unless you ask my wife and she may disagree. but

Carly OsmanOr just house person.

JarrodYeah, yeah, yeah.

Carly OsmanLet's remove the gender.

JarrodHousewife. Sure, sure, sure.

Carly OsmanSo, Jared, we met, well, we met in a pub brought together by someone who, i suppose, was bringing people together who had been made redundant or who had left and traditional employment. And we got talking because we had a lot of similarities, byr both li having lived in Australia for a long time, both made the transition back to the UK. And whilst you've never been made redundant, you've had for the last 18 months or so an amazing podcast called Badlands, where you you've talked to people who have been made redundant. And I'd really love to kind of explore that topic with you today. And and actually, So redundancy is something that happens to, I think it's 44% of people, but yet no one talks about it. It's shrouded in shame. Everyone, the word redundancy itself denotes feelings of not good enough. i' I've been pushed out. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's going on.

JarrodYeah

Carly OsmanSo I'd really love to kind of unpick redundancy and and actually redundancy. What are the main things that come up when people share their stories about redundancy with you?

JarrodOkay. So I started the Badlands podcast mainly because I was bored out of my mind because I found myself for the first time not having a job to go to. First time in my adult life. And at first I was like, sweet, I can help resettle my son as we just moved back to the UK and catch it with people. I've been away for five years and so I didn't think much of it having previously changed agencies when either I wanted to or whether it were times when it felt right to or when interesting things had come up.

Carly OsmanThank you.

JarrodAnd it was largely... not really a problem in the past. you know I had opportunities and and then I found myself not having opportunities and the phone not ringing, having returned to London after being regional client service director at Gray and WPP in Asia and based out of Singapore. And I started the podcast because I noticed during my days at home, trolling LinkedIn, because I thought that was the answer in the beginning. I quickly found out it's actually the antithesis and the exact opposite of what you should do. Just a crazy number of people that I'd either worked with or had been clients or I knew through you know the the broader marketing advertising communications world. was like, my God, there's a lot of folk at my age and level, who are all seemingly open to work or out of of of jobs. And so I kind of, in catching up having come back to London, and I was catching up with folk, you know, obviously doing the, hey, hey, I'm back if you need any help. over I was, so catching up with people anyway and then just finding this surprising amount of, dude, no, there's nothing or, oh no, was let go, i I don't work there anymore and they've closed that agency down or they've shuttered that massive department.

Carly OsmanThank you.

JarrodSo I just found myself talking to lots of people offline as in real world and just, you know, through natural conversations. And I was like, well, there's an awful lot of these people and I'm one of them. And I've got some things to say and I thought maybe it'll make us help. one of the things that came across from people I was speaking to and my own overwhelming feeling post not working was just invisible, just felt utterly invisible. And regardless if you've been made redundant or in my circumstances, you know, kind of moved continents, to to arrive back and just seemingly have no network again. And, you know, it all changed, obviously, in that time, that five years, and people had moved on from wherever they were when I left. And invisible was a real sense of feeling that I had. And again, so sat at home on LinkedIn just makes you feel more invisible, the truth is told. And I got this overwhelming feeling that a lot of the people was speaking to just personally also had is similar feeling. And we're all a bit like, yes, I'll meet for, oh yeah, of course I can do a call because we're all desperate for, you know you go from full-time work, senior position, which is largely a 24-7 thing, as much as you don't get paid 24-7, to then the phone not ringing and no emails to answer on a morning. you so So the habits that you built up, terrible habits of checking your phone the minute you wake up. I no longer had to do that. and it was a weird like, well, have I died? Am I dead? like I don't know because of just all the things I was so used to doing, they were no longer happening. So speaking to people became this... any point of, well, I had to speak to someone because my son was three years old at the time and his conversation was, you know, worse than some clients chit chat before meetings. So I just found myself recording these conversations, obviously with their permission. And we started putting them out as as this podcast, as you say, called The Badlands, which is still going on and has been run by a friend of mine now called Damien McKeown. And everyone i spoke to, and I didn't go into it with an intent of discovering broader picture of the landscape of all of these people. But, you know, I have just by doing a lot of, I did like 52 episodes or something in 12 and a half, 14 months. And a lot of the, there was so many themes that came up. loss, grief, loneliness, invisible, self-doubt, just, you know, loss of ego, loss of self-worth. And what was strange was I felt those things and everyone I was speaking to felt those things. Yet, in some cases, a week, couple of weeks before, there were a high-flying, running a huge marketing department or head of an agency or you know head of a strategy department, a global agency. And then overnight just had this sense of crash and loss. And as I mentioned, in conversations with my therapist, he surmised that it is grief. It's a form of grief that you go through and there are stages to grief and grief in the sense of normally attached to death, but grief is just attached to loss. A loss of a person when it's death, but it can be attached to a loss of a partner in divorce or a loss of, you know, a friendship. It could be, or in in these cases, it was a loss of a job, which in turn was a person's identity or semen identity. So grief is probably the biggest takeaway that I've understood that these people have, myself included, have experienced. And grief comes in many forms, right?

JarrodAnd there's a little bit of a arc to grief, denial, self-loathing, why me? I don't know if I'm gonna survive this. slightly coming out of it, excitement because of the prospect of new, and then just crashes again because it can come back in waves, you know. viright my I found was good when I was active and putting things out in the world and networking. But then if if I had like a 24 hour, 36 hour window of just nothing, I'd i'd crash again.

Carly OsmanYeah

JarrodIt was quite a powerful up and down that I was experiencing. And again, there's such correlation to this the the physicality and the mental association of grief to death that that comes with this feeling of redundancy. I just realized I've just talked for fucking hours and you asked one thing 10 minutes ago.

Carly OsmanThat's... that's

JarrodWe're finished now, right?

Carly OsmanI think you've nailed it because it was a sense of grief. When I got made redundant, it was, oh something's finished, something's died. And I think a lot of that I found was that my identity, I had wrapped up and made, suppose my identity had become my job. And at the beginning, it was a really hard task to, so I suppose, debt divorce and separate the two. i didn't really know who I was without the big job. I didn't know... Yeah, I didn't know how I should show up or what was I was interested And it was really interesting that in the last or last year or so, you've reframed how you introduce yourself to people.

JarrodYeah. No, massive.

Carly OsmanI so And I really struggled with that.

JarrodYeah

Carly OsmanIs that something you see in a lot of people? And how also, how does someone get past that?

JarrodAgain, I can talk about myself and then I won't mention people's names, but just some of the examples that I know people are going through and still going through. I think for me, the the the identity piece, what was what was amazing was the ego attached to it in terms of

Carly OsmanThank you.

JarrodI'm this, this, and this. I'm the former regional, it's just some bullshit title that's made, no one gives a shit, right? it's so it's It's a procurement decision attached to a global rate card. That's what your title is, it's nothing, right? And a big level for me was when my, I realized with spending a lot of time with my son, which I'm so privileged to do, and and it's I'm so fortunate to do, He didn't, he's had no sense of, I'm not that former person to him, I'm his dad, right? And it it made me realize actually, no, I'm still me and I still have the things that people hate and there's things that people love about me. And that title was just some title. it's like And so I quickly found, well, I know I've been quite a cynic anyway throughout my entire advertising career. kind of in a way that's probably annoyed a lot of people and maybe why I haven't found it super easy to to re-enter in this world. But I think just having a sense of realism, and and that that either comes quite quickly or it takes time. And I noticed through conversations, people I've spoken to who were maybe six, eight months into the badlands, as I call it, no longer working in the field that they were used to working in, They kind of go through the arc and then the first scramble, because you're just in that mode still, you know, red redundant or laid off or just circumstantial change of of of jobs that led to no job, you still are that person and feel like that. And then every single day, just like with grief gets easier every single day. And really time is the only healer in all of those cliched ways around breakups and grief and things like that. Time for me was the ultimate reframing of self because moving back to London, i think the second day I moved back to London, I was on the street, which not in a sense, I was talking on the street, I was talking to my phone, stood on the street outside of the house we were renting. And I bumped into a girl I used to work with, a lady I used to work with, hadn't worked with for like 10 years ago, and was like, oh, I've just moved around to Singapore. And I was still that guy and I was on the phone to Singapore. And then six months later, I spoke her like, I'm not that guy anymore.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodDo you know what I mean? And even though I was unemployed that day when I was speaking to I was still in that kind of mode.

Carly OsmanKnow

JarrodBut then time shaved off those bits and I just dropped those bits. And took me a while. And then I kind of hid it a little bit still, you know. It was almost denial was a part of it, you know. And I found with people I spoke to through the podcast, it really varied from how soon I was speaking to them in their own journey how much of that identity they were still retaining. And i could I could sense it when we were still talking. Some people are still talked in the present of their persona and job. Some people you talked in the former. And again, it was just based on that time arc. And it was it's scary, and I'm sure we'll get to the positives soon because there are lots.

Carly OsmanYou

JarrodBut yeah, the did time was the factor in helping realize that that's a job title and the way you are at work and that, that perception of yourself and in the world, based on the 50 hours you give to this corporation that would replace you the day after, if you got knocked over by a bus, your job spec would be on LinkedIn the following few fucking days after they'd mourned you and had a GoFundMe page for your family. You're not that person.

Carly OsmanYep.

JarrodYou're a, you know, you're a mom, dad, single, whatever, you know, you you're a human being first and foremost, who happens to exchange time for money, right? You exchange your own time for someone to pay you so you can pay the bills. So I think it I learned that it was not who I was. It was the story I'd been telling the world. And they're two totally different things.

Carly OsmanBut Before we move on to the positives, and I i do want to go there because i personally, four years after I've been made redundant, I think it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

JarrodThat won't take long. Right. but

Carly OsmanDidn't know at the time, but I really do believe that. But I want to talk about this denial. Do you think that denial was rooted in shame? Do you think because, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there is stigma around redundancy and redundancy. It's stigma at two levels. And I think at a society level, yeah it's it's seen as the way of the world. You want to be employed. You want the big title. You want this. You want that. You want the secure income. But also from a personal perspective, you want to be doing those things. You want to be seeing that you're making the contribution. You're looking after your family. You're bringing in the income. like Do you think that we've still actually got a long way to go to, i suppose, change that conversation?

JarrodYeah, the the funny thing with redundancy, if there is a funny thing, is it's 99.9% out of your control.

Carly OsmanThank

JarrodIt's nothing to do with you, right? It's it's not, you haven't said, that the one hasn't said, I think I'll make myself redundant. It's not a thing, right? So, but Again, talking to all the folk I spoke to, talked to my wife about things offline. I was like, look, it's it's I'd say 99% of these people have done nothing wrong at all. It's not like any of them's made a catastrophic error, which you go, it's time you move on. Everyone was just either made redundant or yeah in in some form or another, a change of agency structure, whatever it was called. And I stole the phrase and I can't remember where I found it, where I heard it. I wish I could now because it was it really helped me. And then I started really passing on when I was talking to people, which was take it professionally, not personally. It's nothing to do with you, the person. It goes back to the realization that you are a lion on a spreadsheet, really, really. And that's awful and terrifying. And i'm not I'm not reducing those people to that. I'm saying the business world and the corporations, the global, you are a line on a spreadsheet. You're a cost in a CFO's document, right? And no short of being fired for incompetence or gross misconduct, people were being let go because it would it would create the biggest savings for the reporting of next quarter, right? If you could remove half a million in salaries, which would come from five people at a senior level versus 20 people at mid-level, where's the CFO going to go, right? take it it was but It was a professional decision. It wasn't, let's get rid of Carly because she's got horrible glasses.

Carly OsmanYep.

JarrodIt's nothing to do with the person. It was a... financial decision largely. There's a great example. i spoke to marketing former regional marketing director of an incredibly well known franchise retail outlet. And I'm going to avoid saying people's names on this. And it won't be hard to find who I'm talking to, we're talking about. And she told me the tale of That company had been bought out by a private equity firm and 12 months later, her and the marketing team were dumped because there was just, she was a series of line items on some analysts forecasting document for where savings and and efficiencies could be made.

Carly OsmanThank

JarrodNothing Nothing to do with, she she fundamentally changed all the metrics that a marketing person can change in a good way in her time there, over seven years, I think it was, going gangbusters, which is why the private equity company would have been interested in the first ways of owning this business. And then what they did is they came in, consulted, did whatever, and just reduced waste or spend.

Carly OsmanYeah yeah

JarrodNo What they did is they were removed people. And it's the the language is never, what we're going to do is we're going come in and fundamentally take away a lot of people's income. no It's not that, it's we're going to look at ways of efficiency. Well, you know, and hers was a great example of doing everything right, yet was just a line item. So that was a, take that professionally, not personally. They didn't get rid of it because she had funny dress style, know I mean? It was purely a business decision, which whatever that is. And it's largely money. It's just a money thing, right?

Carly OsmanThank

JarrodSo then the challenge you have is you have to be able to separate the two. And I think it takes takes time for you for an and for you to be able to do that. And I did it And I know people I spoke to, and again, like I say, depending how long they were on that journey, largely gave me a sense of how far they were from decoupling them themselves, the actual self, from the persona of that spreadsheet line item, which exists in that corporation. it was it's it's And it's hard to do. It's not easy. Just just as grief isn't, there's no thing you could do to go, well, fine. And i think I think one thing I'd noticed, there's two types of redundancy. With the forecast redundancy, i we're putting you notice that in the next three to six months, changes might come about.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodTo I spoke to people who, within a 36-hour period, found out that their job was gone. And that was like, I've lost someone to a car accident, i. e. no rhyme or reason, just dead to this this this loss of person has been growing over a bad illness. And and and from a conversation I was having with this therapist who was talking about, they're two different types of grief because you do a lot of the grieving in real time with the person. It's slower, slower burn versus the bang, someone's gone. And I've noticed that with people I've spoken to. There are two they're real different, slightly softer landings. And I guess given opportunity and the foresight around this thing might happen, and I've seen people then take a better run-up. Now, I would preface that with most people like me hadn't assumed that they'd be landing in the shit the next day.

JarrodBecause my biggest learning was having no sense of the the world actually as it was from a hiring point of view before it was too late. And it was it occurred to me that if I had been, well, I was working and was paying very little attention to anything outside of that world of work and life, right? okay So even the ones who were on notice for redundancy, i The amount of people that I spoke to said, so what I do is I thought i'd build I'd take like three, four weeks off, you know, do of the jobs around the house I've been putting off for my wife for a couple of years or the husband and the partner, do a bit of traveling and then get a job. And six months later, I'm now going, why did I do that? Why did it? And so there was all these assumptions that these people had that,

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodThey weren't landing into a very unique period for them. And and and I think we we have to be mindful that you know industries change continuously and we're not the first group of people to be unemployed. But I think the bias I have is there's an awful lot of very talented people out of work at the minute. And the funny thing is I listen to the radio too much now. And my therapist told me not to listen to this one particular station, which I do listen to. And the amount of stories at the minute attached to the budget and employment, employment numbers and people not willing to work. And I'm thinking, Well, I know 100 who are fucking desperate to go back to work. like But if the country's climate, economic, business, prospect, growth doesn't accommodate hiring someone on X amount, it it's not out of and it it's not out of a lack of desire to work. Unfortunately, don't have the ear of government. wish I did.

Carly OsmanI think it's really interesting again, this, this grief cycle. And I was in a, I suppose a bit of a unique position, for not a unique and position, but I got made redundant. It was a suddenly overnight thing. However, I had an inkling it was coming for a long time.

JarrodYeah.

Carly OsmanBut rather than preparing, I went to the worst case scenario and dread and I would be constantly thinking about the what if every night I'd go to bed and it's gonna be tomorrow, I'm gonna get made redundant and it prolonged the situation. So for me, actually, when I got married redundant, it was suddenly this big relief, oh, the worst has happened. Okay, now I can move on and now I can start that process of grief and actually kind of figure out what next. But I think for me, it was the best thing that ever happened, but the worst thing at the time.

JarrodSure. Yeah.

Carly OsmanBecause i I didn't, despite thinking it was going to happen, i didn't make any contingencies, I didn't have a plan, I i wasn't out there networking, I wasn't out there building my profile, all of the things that I would look now and say, absolutely, you need to be doing these as table stakes. but for me, I was miserable in my job. i was absolutely, I absolutely hated it.

JarrodYeah

Carly OsmanI, I used to get the 3am Sunday night feel I used to get the 3am fear every day. And I was just absolutely miserable. And then when I started interviewing with people after the job, I would go into these interviews and they were like, we love you. When can you start? And I would feel this full body sensation. And my body would go, no, no, it's just the same situation with a different title over the the door.

JarrodRight Yeah.

Carly OsmanSo actually, I then use that as my catalyst to go, okay, I need to make money, but how do I do it in a different way? Let's have a start thinking about what my values are. And how can I, how can I work in a way that is much more in line with that rather than odds? odd

JarrodYeah, look, we've all been conditioned, right? No, sorry. I was talking about myself. I went to school and university a time which was go to school, get good grades, go to university if you can. i was the last gen i was literally the last year of university that was with no fees. And then it was, so now you've got a degree, should be able to get a good job and you should be able to work and and then you'll retire.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodBut that was That was the origin of the arc that I was given at school. was like, cool, well, at least I picked something I'm interested in and I could love to do this for 40 years, privilege, blah, blah. Brilliant. So then you go well, 20 odd years later, oh hang on I've still got 20 years left of work in me. Why have I been dumped out of the machine? It doesn't make sense, you know. So then having to scramble to find new ways of of contributing financially has been an interesting challenge. And it hasn't come naturally to me As in, because just the conditioning and the schooling and the, it was going to exchange your time for a company, with a company for money, right? And all of a sudden you go, well, that's fine. I've i've i've done that well. Now it's how else can you do it? And what are the other ways to do it? And the thing that gives me a little bit of hope with the the current crop of adults, let's say 25 plus, there's slightly much, They're less inclined to be, you do this for 50 years, and they're much more, I can do this for a bit, might do this for a bit, I'll do a bit of this, I'll have this. And I think that's an unbelievable learning and a thing that I see where I'm like, oh, that suits today's modern world better than the kind of 50-year arc of I will work in this factory until they tell me I can't. And... and i had I hadn't set myself up in that way. I'm fortunate that as a family unit, we when with the wolf's not at the door and things like that, but I still have my own desires and needs and wants. and you know we We got paid handsomely in the advertising industry for essentially sitting around talking shit and coming up with ideas, you know, coming up, it's like, we weren't changing the world per se. I find it hilarious, slightly watching from the outside on LinkedIn, the furore around stuff that comes out. i'm like, no one cares. so But you crack on you guys, because you do when you're in it. And and that's fine. The passion needs to exist. Otherwise we'd all just sit at home. And it's been a challenge finding ideas It's been interesting. It took me a while because at first I wasn't things like that. And then this last year, that's what this last eight months, that's what I have took my focus to going, well, okay. There's a funny thing that happens. And it is funny. And everyone I spoke to has said this. Everybody says them, oh man, you can do anything you want now. And you go, that's the most useless fucking thing I've ever heard anyone say to me.

Carly OsmanThank you.

JarrodOkay, let me check with every other sector and every other industry in the world if they're desperately looking for someone who's worked in advertising for 25 years, because I'll tell you now they're not. So there's a notion that you can do anything, but what comes with that is blind, like just paralysis by choice. It's like almost, I went through a couple of months of going, maybe I could, oh, I can't be a fisherman. Maybe I could scaffold up.

Carly OsmanYeah over

JarrodI don't lie like height.

Carly OsmanA water

JarrodI'd just do everything in my head. Maybe I could be a carpenter. I don't particularly like wood. you know' Just ridiculous. like Trying to figure out what I could do has been as hard as trying to do the thing I'd only ever done in a weird way, but much more interesting. And i did I did some sessions with a family friend who's a career consultant, you know, helps transition this stuff. And one of the most amazing things I did with her was find out what i shouldn't do. And that was brilliant.

Carly OsmanOh, interesting.

JarrodYeah, really, really good. And I told my wife, have to rent I could have saved you the hour and told you that you couldn't do those things.

Carly OsmanI

JarrodI was like, no, but there's a little bit of formula behind this. So sos it's is's good to find out what you shouldn't do from a personality and persona and you know emotional state, because I think it's helpful. I think they the opportunity to do stuff is real, but equally important. It's quite weird to then go, it's like being 18 again, going, what am I gonna do with my life? Yeah, you're halfway fucking through it.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodSo as much as you know about stuff, there's there is a and again, know passing all over, I apologize. The conversations I was having with people, and again, depending how far they were on the arc of re-entering work, or paid employment in some shape or form. In some cases, gratefully, thankfully, back in the advertising marketing world. Some cases, just new. Some cases, like an adjacent. And sometimes just, yeah, no, I've just decided I'm just going to be painter now. Like there was there was, you talked about it was the best thing that happened to you. There was a few people I spoke to who'd been long enough out who were kind of now in that slight, Interesting. I'm no longer burdened with feeling I have to do this because this is all I've done for 20 odd years.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodMaybe I could write that book but because I'm not doing anything else right now. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to pay the mortgage and rent and keep feeding, then it does start to free up parts of your brain that you've slightly lost because you simply don't have the time because of life going by. And, you know, my wife dreads when I go, so I've been thinking, because it's like, this could be an expensive exercise in me trying something then going, I'm not interested interested in that.

JarrodOr just utter flights of fantasy. But what quite like is the other side of it, you do get a sense of, actually, what could I do? And it's really interesting and it's really interesting. It's quite exciting. It's terrifying.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodAnd as much as you know stuff from whatever career you've had, to then go, Well, I've never done any of that. But maybe I could, you know, I've got transferable human skills just from being alive. So that that's really interesting. One thing I would say is, I've found this, there's a lot of barriers to entry, though, in the UK at the minute around trying new things, starting new businesses and things. And it's its really frustrating. And again, it's it's It's probably part of a much broader picture that is part of the overall problem of the lack of opportunities that exist for senior folk i mean as say senior folk. When I say senior folk, I don't mean old. I mean in that real good, strong middle part of their careers where they're the bottom of the top is how I used to refer to myself. I was the bottom of the top of the pyramid within the agency world, right? It just seems like there's, you can hustle and there are things and there are ways to do it. you You've certainly done it fantastically well and doing it well. And i've I've found a couple of things that I wanted to do and really gone down the roads of getting applications and counsel, permissions and things, and then just finding, just, Everyone going out of their way to block it.

Carly OsmanYeah. Yeah.

JarrodAnd it's like, all right, fine, I'll play golf. If you don't want me to contribute, fine, I'll go and play golf, right? It's like, you know. But the there's there's an interesting part that happens, which is there's a fear slightly subsides. And then you start thinking slightly differently. There's an amazing lady I'll introduce you to who's a former guest. And she's going through the... what could I do? And I'm kind of like egging her on a little bit in our chats and stuff because she's a bit like, you know what? I can put my effort into X or I can put it into something that something else. And I think think it's it's a powerful piece. It's terrifying. And again, it's it's there's a privileged part that comes with i know I know some incredibly talented, hardworking, former marketing, advertising, and communications people who are now... and these I'm not disparaging these things, but I'm just saying it's a huge change. Delivery driver or painter and decorator or... because they need to pay the bills and it's you have to and obviously that's that's that take priority over most most things in life right and but

Carly OsmanDo you think you can speed up that? Oh, this curiosity. Or do you think it is just the natural cycle of time?

JarrodIt's

Carly OsmanSo you go through the grief stages, you go through, oh my God, this is fucking hard. I'm being blocked left, right and center. And then you start going, okay, I need to be more creative around how I make money, how I think about it.

JarrodI can tell you the most terrifying thing that happened to me in that arc was when I was asked, would I interview for this thing? And 12 months had gone by, maybe 14 months had gone by. I was like, yeah, because i was I'd had too much of a, I'd had one foot off on the off ramp so long. And bit like you, I was but like, I could try and go back in, but would I be back here again in two years time? But like two years dumber and two years older and two years annoyed. So there was a point where I had to jump into new because it i the analogy I used to my wife trying to justify not going for the first job interview was, it's like going back to a bad ex. I can't, like, I just can't do it. i My friends have all got me out of it, and she she's she's trying to drag me back into the lure of her sex, and just the terrible things have come in it. as I was like, no, no, no, So stay away, and I've managed to stay strong and not to go back in. i've always I'd always said, Look, if someone called me and said, hey, come and do this thing for three months, six months. Of course, I love it. It's brilliant. Yeah, of course. It's awesome. I loved working in advertising with creatives and clients. I love it. I was in the people business. It's just fun. Because if it wasn't fun, something was fundamentally wrong with that entire business because it should be fun. It's art school. we get paid. It's just art school, but you get paid, right? And so clearly I'd still do it. and know I still help out a few people consultancy wise. They just ask me shit and I tell them no one's going give it shit about it. k Crack on, don't worry about it. But there was a point where I had to fully let go in order to think differently. to not to borrow an ad phrase. I had to then, like yeah but it took me however long it took me. And I don't think there's a i don't think there is a timeline. I think there's your timeline. Same with grief, right? In the past, I've gotten over X's with a shower and and then some I've gotten over with months of, you know, look feeling terrible and and life's not gonna go on

Carly OsmanSo it always does.

JarrodThen it always does.

Carly OsmanAnd If anyone's listening who's just been made redundant right now or is still in that processing stage, what piece of advice or reassurance would you have for them?

JarrodYou, the person, John Smith, Sally Coles, weren't made redundant. The role, the but the the title, the the the line item, the the the the spreadsheet information was moved from one column to another column. Be angry about the association of that, but don't take it, oh, they've got rid of me. They didn't. They don't even know you, the people who made that decision. They have no idea who you are. And that's awful. Be angry about that. Change that. I spoke to and one of my episodes was with a former CMO, incredibly senior CMO. And he'd been out of work for 18 months. And he was well-renowned UK CMO, you know, some huge brands everyone will have heard. And his experience had changed him to the extent that when he was talking to me offline, he was like, when I do go back in, I'm going fundamentally try and change how we operate as a business because I've experienced is that the human side of it, and i was like, well, good for you. I hope you do. But I didn't carry, you know, I took him on face value, but I know it's hard because when you get back in there, you're back in the thrust of head down, head down, head down. But yeah, just take it professionally, not personally. Do what's needed to address the human factors of shelter, food, sort that If you can get those things in your head aligned, it frees up the ability to think. Because i think what I found was just a crippling inability to think in the beginning. Because I was just acting in a way that I thought was the right thing to be doing. And acting was my way of convincing myself that it'll be okay. Really, I should if I didn't take a deep enough breath in the beginning to think, I was just into problem solving mode, which is what we all have spent our careers doing largely, right?

JarrodYou know, when I met my wife, she had no idea what I did in really our industry at all. And I was like, I heard cats a lot. That's what I do. Come on, we're going get from here to here. We'll spend some money. We'll make some stuff. And that company might make some. I heard shit along. And when you're doing that all the time, there's there's actions and there are behaviors that kind of help you get that along. When you have to stop doing that, I started doing it to myself on a daily basis. Like today I've got to this, this, this, network. I had these spreadsheets. I was like, fucking hell. What I've lost is the fundamental piece of my career, which was being a person and thinking and thinking clearly and taking a step back from time time when everyone's losing their heads, which happens all the time in meetings, right? And just being quiet and thinking. So I think it would be take a beat, get some fundamentals lined up quick in a way that is useful to you, shelter and food. realize it's not probably wasn't personal. And the decision was made by people who probably don't know who you are.

JarrodBe annoyed about that. Because that's a problem in society that we are these, you know, autonomous robots, terrified of being taken over by autonomous robots, the irony attached to that. And then just try and understand that it will pass, it will change, it will be okay ultimately. It'll be awful. It'll be terrifying. But, you know, gotten as far as you have in your career, talking me to you down the down the barrel, whoever's listening, you haven't got there through luck. It's through hard work and perseverance and, and and you know, and a modicum of talent. So remember that. Don't don't open LinkedIn for a month. Don't think that that's where anything happens because it doesn't... speak to people, have coffees, go to networking events where you meet random people on street sides. And, you know, eat I think being open to, being open to new ways of living is the important part. Because I wasn't for a while. said, no, I have to get a job in advertising. Why? Because but that's what I've done. Well, that's just... Yeah, a look where it's landed you, right?

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodSo, yeah, don't don't... It's terrifying, it's scary, but it's also then... there are some There are some really amazing things that come out of it. Weirdly, it's such a strange thing. Meeting new people, thinking differently, painting that picture picture you've always wanted to paint, writing it write in that novel you've always wanted to write. Working in a coffee shop and realizing, actually, not everyone is an arsehole at work. There are some really nice people.

Carly OsmanYou

JarrodYou can do some just do some stuff. like Weirdly try and... And again, it's easy to say with my personal circumstances, but yeah if you can take that beat and look around, you know, classic Ferris Bueller, life moves pretty fast.

Carly OsmanYeah.

JarrodYou don't stop and look around once in a while, you're going to miss it. And we've been forced into that kind of take a look around phase.

Carly OsmanYeah. Well, Jared, thank you. That was absolutely brilliant.

JarrodYou're welcome.

Carly OsmanThank you.

JarrodIt's been a pleasure. i loved meeting you. like Like I was just saying, randomly, just this is the thing, right? It's just