Death

Carly OsmanWelcome Poppy. I'm really looking forward to delving into death with you. I mean that sounds quite morbid but really kind of uncovering I suppose the things that we're not talking about that we really need to. So firstly before we do that who are you?

Poppy MardallI am Poppy Mardle and 13 years ago, I set up a funeral directors called Poppy's Funerals and we exist to bring outstanding experiences to end of life. So in a sector that's at best, I think, perceived to be a kind of sales machine selling you the sort of gold, silver, bronze package. And at worst, you know, you see the exposes in the news every week. we're saying, yes, we can't change the reality of death, but we can take fabulous care of you, the living and also the dead at this time in our lives that is coming to all of us.

Carly OsmanI've actually got a friend who's used your service and said it was for a very, very, very difficult situation. Yeah, it made it made it so much better. So.

Poppy MardallThat means, yeah, i thank you for making that connection. it It's a <unk>s I'm sure it's true if you're a midwife or a primary school teacher, you know, these jobs that some of us have where you're in Sainsbury's putting tangerines in the basket and someone will come up to you and say, you know, you helped us last month or 10 years ago and we're grateful. Yeah, it's such an amazing feeling to think that you might have just been there for people, you know, when they needed you. So thank you so much for saying that.

Carly OsmanThat's alright. So firstly, why as a society do we find it so hard to talk about death and end of life?

Poppy MardallI mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Considering it's everywhere and it's certain. And I don't think there's one easy answer. I think there's a a mixture of of things going on. So I think perhaps the first thing to remember is that we, it's quite recent that we have kept death so hidden from view. You know, so 100 years ago, you you die at home, you know. And so if you were a kid growing up in a house, it would be normal to have your dead relative in the front room after they died and to be in houses where that was happening and you were going to say goodbye. So I think the first thing to recognize is it's sort very normal to get to 30, 40, 50, you know, you will have been to funerals, but you might never have seen a dead person.

Poppy MardallAnd so we're simply not seeing it. And I think it's that follows. If you're not seeing it, it's not being discussed, I think is one thing. And that is as a result of you know amazing advances in healthcare, which are fabulous and which we don't wanna do without. I think secondly, as we come away from, you know as many people come away from sort of religion and and traditional spirituality, we're sort of losing our etiquette. So i was speaking to a Jewish friend this week who was just saying, it's when people in my community die, like there's just this really fabulous set of clear rules that we all follow and everybody knows where they stand.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallAnd I think for lots of us, we don't have that structure in place. And so again, there's an absence, which leaves us feeling adrift. And then I'm sure there is a sort of somewhat natural evolutionary fear, you know, so even in cultures around the world where death is discussed, it's often not fully embraced, you know, there'll, there'll be some structure in place to cope with it. But that doesn't mean it's something you're welcoming across the threshold. So I think, you know, maybe it's fair to say, it's scary, it's hard. and It's massively unknown, with all our and advances in science. Very few people could answer the question of like precisely what happens to our energy after we die. And people have very different views about that. So, yeah, I think it's a jumble of things. But I can summarize by saying I think it's doing us no good that we don't discuss it.

Carly OsmanAnd because we don't discuss it, we don't actually have the vocabulary to discuss it. So I've got had a few friends who've lost parents recently. I don't know what to say. And because I don't know what to say, I do that classic thing where I don't say anything but at all. And then I think I'm being a totally shit friend, whereas this is the point that they really need me. But How do we get more comfortable talking about it? And what should we say? Can we even say the wrong thing? What is the right thing to say? There's a million questions in there, Poppy. How? Just tell me what I need to do.

Poppy MardallYeah. Well, i maybe first to say, like, I deal with this day in a day out and I still find my pen hovering unknowing over the bit of paper or the card when my friends are grieving too. So I think there is a, maybe it's about respecting that kind of completely overwhelming moment of like, I cannot make this better in a society that really likes to fix things.

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallI cannot fix this. And that makes me deeply uncomfortable and leaves me feeling defeated. So maybe maybe to say that doesn't mean you failed, that's normal. And that should not stop you from reaching out. So I think it's just to say, stop trying to quote some wise philosopher and just say, I love you. Please, can I come and clean your house? You know, there's a lasagna on your front step, you know.

Carly OsmanNo.

Poppy MardallAnd so I think there's a thing there, which is like, don't try and be wise. Don't try and fix this. Just be a friend. There's two more things. The second thing is say the name of the dead person. Keep saying the name of the dead person. That is something the grieving people repeat over and over again. It's like people stopped saying my dad's name. They started talking in sort of hushed voices about his memory. I wanted them to call and sort of explode with laughter about the time that he like fell off the horse at the merry-go-round or accidentally set fire to the roast chicken, you know. share stories, share memories, say their name, say their name, say their name. And then the last thing I think is crucial is grieving people will report a really overwhelming amount of support and communication in the days and weeks after the death and then a complete vacuum, you know, from the funeral onwards. And it's much better to just message your friend once a week for two years And put the anniversary of the death in your diary and make sure you reach out on those days and remember for five years, you know, be that consistent, sustainable force. Don't rain love bombing and compassion on them solidly for two solid weeks when they often aren't even they won't remember any of it.

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallYou know, be that be a sustainable presence in their life. Don't try and be the wisest person on the first day.

Carly OsmanWhy do you think we don't say someone's name? Because I, in the past, I'm i'm going to hypothesis about myself here, but I've gone, oh, I don't want to remind them. i don't i want don want to say their name because then it's going to make them really sad. But they're already really sad, aren't they?

Poppy MardallYeah, I guess it's the it's the gulf that exists between people who are grieving and people who aren't. And I've heard lots of grieving people say, you know, it's like I was on one island of not knowing and now I've joined this other island of knowing and there's a gulf between us. I think it's, yeah, I think it's those of us who are not grieving forgetting that that person is in their mind all day, every day. And so when we say their name, we we make a connection.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallAnd also they might start crying and that doesn't mean we've cried made them cry. That doesn't mean we've upset them. It means we have allowed them to feel something.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallSo i I get it. I was talking to someone the other day at one of the death cafes that I run who was saying she she lost her dad when she was in her twenties and you know, very common story that just like friends and peers just couldn't relate, you know, so it felt like a very lonely experience. And then as time went on, she said, as her friends lost people, they would call her and say, i just haven't been there for you. now Now that I'm going through it, I realize I wasn't there for you and I'm so sorry. so yeah, it's like, can we be good friends without having to learn it the hard way?

Carly OsmanDo you think there's also a factor of, if we talk about death, we inadvertently welcome it into our lives? is there something there as well?

Poppy MardallSuperstition. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think let's call it what it is, which is superstition.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallSo we might say I'm not superstitious and then we find ourselves, you know, not treading on the cracks on the pavement or, yeah, I think there's a huge amount of superstition. In fact, when I became a funeral director, you know, I could feel from a few people close to me, a sense of like, I don't know, like I was jinxing myself, you know, by by doing it.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallSo again, I think let's acknowledge that and say, It's just because we're not used to it. So if we don't see the people around us doing it, we subconsciously sense that they must be it must be bad. And it's like, let's switch the light on in the room and say, this isn't this isn't helping.

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallThis isn't true. It's natural to feel it, but it isn't true.

Carly OsmanIt's so interesting, like a personal situation. I got really interested in death probably just after COVID and I became absolutely terrified of mortality, but, and to the point I would be waking up in the middle of the night and just thinking about death and the people around me dying and me dying and worst case scenario, everything. But what I did is I actually started listening to a podcast called Grief Cast, which is meant for people who have been bereaved and are going through grief.

Poppy MardallOh, yeah.

Carly OsmanBut for me, it was talking about it and actually knowing that, yes, this is something that is inevitable to us all. But talking about it actually makes it less of a huge thing. And you talk about these grief cafes, and I'd love to kind of explore them a little bit more.

Poppy MardallYeah

Carly OsmanAre these some of the conversations that are coming out in those?

Poppy MardallYeah Yeah, I mean, I think the thing you're describing, the way I'd understand that is like, we hold so if we hold something at bay and then we bring the barrier down, it's going to flood in, isn't it?

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallAnd so the first first few days of thinking about death, or talking about death, they're feel very, your skin is going to be very raw because you haven't let it in. Whereas is this if this conversation had happened around the dining table as a child, so, oh, my mum keeps bringing it up. It's so boring. She's talking about death again. It's so boring. then then you don't need to feel overwhelmed. So I think part part it's not a bad sign that that you're feeling that overwhelm.

Poppy MardallIt's probably just the reflection of the fact that it hasn't been a discussion that that's been had. People who come, so so I run eight death cafes a year and and death cafe is this amazing movement set up by this amazing man called John Underwood. His thinking was death is something that is taboo, it's not helpful. we should be able to come together and have this discussion separate from grief, actually, you know, so whilst lots of people who come to death cafe will have been bereaved in the past, it's not a bereavement cafe. There's always cake, there's always tea. And it's full of people who are coming saying, you know, I'm 19 or I'm 89. And I just think it's weird that we're not having this discussion. I want to have this discussion. I want to understand, you know,

Carly OsmanYeah. Yeah.

Poppy MardallWhat might happen when I die? Why did this happen in the past when my mum died? What actually happens in the cremator? you know

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallSo yeah, i think there is I think there is always a longing. For me, it's i always think of it, it's like a room in darkness and What we've got to do is just open the door and shine a torch in there and realise there aren't monsters in there. You know, it's just a room.

Carly OsmanHave

Poppy MardallAnd once we do that, there's a deep sense of relief. You know, death is scary, but it is what it is. It's not more than it is.

Carly OsmanSo how do I have those kind of conversations with my child now? Because I don't want him, so I'm now 40, I don't want him to, in however many years, turn around and be like, in this freaked out state that I'm in.

Poppy MardallAnd Yeah.

Carly OsmanWhat what do I say now? And how do I introduce this?

Poppy MardallAll good. does he Does he never ask anything? he never Does he never ask about death?

Carly OsmanWell, it's always at the most inopportune moments that he's seven and then suddenly he will come out and be yeah you like, where's that come from? we We're in Sainsbury's. I don't know how to address this right now. but

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanIt's not, but he's also not lost anyone close to him.

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanBut so we're in that situation where inevitably he will lose grandparents some point. that That is the situation.

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanBut again, I've not really proactively spoken to him about it.

Poppy MardallI don't think you need it. That's what I'm wondering. I'm wondering, I was having a chat this week with some friends wondering like, are my children particularly preoccupied with death and sex? Because they seem to be asking about those things all the time. And they're quite young. and i I think if we tune in, we will realise that children are asking about taboo all the time.

Carly OsmanYes.

Poppy MardallSo I'd be really surprised if, you know, over the over the course of a year, child isn't at some point saying, you know, that there's a dead squirrel over there, like where, what's happened to him? Or, you know, that bit of fruit's gone moldy, or my friend Mary's granny is sick, you know, is she going to be okay?

Carly OsmanYes

Poppy MardallI think they are giving us these little opportunities constantly, where we can either say, everything will be fine, Oh, don't look at the squirrel. You know, it's we can sweep it under the carpet because we're busy or we're tired or we're petrified about opening this can of worms.

Poppy MardallAnd I think we have this opportunity and responsibility to actually open the door a little further and say, so so the things that come up with my kids all the time, and yes, it's so often at like bedtime has been going on for hours, I'm desperate to have a cup of tea on my own. And then someone will say like, what will happen when you die? you know, anything like, oh, good, good, good Lord. But actually, two things I can do. Either I can just say, do you know what? These conversations are really important. and rare I'm just going to slide into bed next to you and have this discussion. And the way I would have this discussion and all of the best guidance that comes from brilliant child bereavement charities like Winston's Wish and Child Bereavement UK, what they say is, be really careful that you're only answering the exact question the child has asked. Because there's something.

Carly OsmanOkay

Poppy MardallWhen a child asks a question about taboo, there's like a part of us that kind of wants to step on the podium and give a TED talk. And that that is not required. you know And also that can be very overwhelming. They don't need like all of your terrors and thoughts. They just, when my child says like, are you going to die, mom? Or when you die, what's going to happen? The answer to that question is like, yes, I will die. I'm really healthy and I live a really good life. So I'm pretty confident it's not going to happen for a very long time. You know, my mom and dad are still alive. So like that bodes well, doesn't it? You know, hopefully I'll be a grandparent. And you'll be an adult and it'll be okay. And what happens then, in my experience, is they either just go, they sort of get all snuggly and roll over and they're like, okay, that's a good answer.

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallOr they say, but X, Y, Z. But but Mary's dad died and she's only eight. And then you say, you know, you just answer the questions as they come.

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallAnd maybe And maybe something really crucial, maybe you acknowledge as a parent that is this is actually really hard because you have not been role modeled how to have these discussions because when you ask these questions, they were shut down or you weren't allowed to go to your grandparents' funeral. And so you have a little bit of compassion for yourself and say, when you ask these in your head, when you're asking me these questions, I'm feeling quite unsafe. I'm feeling quite sensitized because I realize I don't really know what I think. I'm really scared of this stuff. The idea that I one day will be dying, you'll be you'll that be there to fend for yourself petrifies me. you know And then the very last bit of advice that I've heard, which is great, is it's also perfectly OK to say, I just need to go away and think about that.

Carly OsmanOkay.

Poppy MardallIt's a great question. The question you've asked is a great question. And I just need to go and think about that. But I will come back to you and then just make sure you do, you know, within the week. So I think it's, I think it's an opportunity not to be missed.

Carly OsmanYeah, and actually taking the time to seize it and and give it the consideration. I go automatically go to the TED Talks and I do the same thing with sex and I'm going to be the perfect parent.

Poppy MardallYeah, it's so hard. It's no, I'm the same. It's so, cause you're like, okay, this is my moment, you know like.

Carly OsmanI want to shift focus and actually talk about the business and practicalities of dying and funerals.

Poppy MardallThank you.

Carly OsmanSo I've been to a few funerals in the last couple of years, and I would say hands down, neither of the funerals, neither of those two funerals I went to reflected the person who died at all. They were impersonal. There was missing joy and life and and all of that true celebration of life. how do we get create more authentic personal funerals?

Poppy MardallYes. It's, it's so sad because it's so unnecessary and it's such a missed opportunity. And I think, I wonder if one of the reasons why meaningless funerals have become so pervasive is because we're so, like, it feels so weird to sort of complain about a funeral, you know, and because you can't really do it again or people feel like you can't do it again.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallSo, so you have to leave saying, well, that was a good send off, wasn't it? Even if in your heart, you're like the ceremony leader got the name wrong twice and

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallYou know, we were just kind of conveyor belted through in 20 minutes. So it's to say funerals should not be like that. And really there's no point coming together to say goodbye if we don't get something really tangible and meaningful from it. I would say that that's why you need to choose an excellent funeral director because you need, but my the best funerals we do are ones where the client, you know, often a family or a community of friends, feel empowered to have what they want. Because I think there it is worth acknowledging that one of the things that's quite challenging about a funeral is the person organising it can feel under quite a lot of pressure to meet quite a lot of different needs. And if you think about, for example, the formality or the tradition of funerals, you know, so even though at Poppies, know, our branding is quite fresh and our approach is quite fresh, you know, the majority of funerals we do look quite traditional. It's to say it does take quite a lot of courage to...

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallGo against that, particularly if they're gonna be people coming to the funeral who are expecting that. And that's a conversation we have a lot with our clients, which is like, you know, my mom would have loved the leopard print hers, but it's gonna really upset Uncle Edward. So we're just gonna go Dickensian, but please, can you put her, can you make sure she's wearing her leopard print scarf in the coffin or, you know, let's play, you know, this, her favorite Rolling Stones track as she's leaving, leaving the crematorium.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallSo a really good funeral director can bring to life all of your hopes, wishes and needs. And then I think the second thing is often somebody dies. And even if you know they were going to die talking about the funeral was really hard. You didn't feel able to kind of have that discussion with them. And then you feel like you've got to organise it within two or three weeks. that That can really, that pressure, that time pressure can really kind of shut down creativity. So again, there there are many people who we'll be working with who will say, I don't know if I had more time and space, you know, I'd want to do this and this and this, but actually I just need to get this thing over with, which I think the argument for that is why it can be really useful to be having these conversations ahead of time is it's not that these things necessarily take long to plan.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallYou know, we've organized fabulous funerals within sort of five or six days. It's more about giving yourself permission to have the thing that you want.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallAnd if you feel rushed, that tends to be a time of kind of shutting down opportunity.

Carly OsmanSo what I'm kind of hearing from this is actually, we should be talking about our own wants and desires for our own funerals.

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanBut again, that comes into the superstition and that I don't want jinx death. This is an uncomfortable conversation. Don't want to have it because I will be devastated if I end up with this

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanBlack, everyone wearing black, morbid, horrible thing. I want fun. I want a disco ball. want a celebration of life and energy. And I, life after death, don't know what my thoughts are on that, but I will haunt people if they give me that.

Poppy MardallYeah.

Carly OsmanIt's just...

Poppy MardallYeah, well, and I think it's the horror, isn't it, that you've tried to live a life according to your own values and to be distinctly yourself and that that final thing that people would be sitting there thinking like this, yeah as you've described it, what a horrible final parting relational experience to for people to go away thinking this is so much like school assembly and so nothing like the person I loved.

Carly OsmanYeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Poppy MardallAnd it is it's just such a magical feeling when you're in that room and we do something or someone tells a story that just sets a light people's connection with the dead person you know and that that could be that could just be someone up front telling stories feeling confident to tell the rude stories and the funny stories and the sad stories as well as the kind of acceptable stories or or kind of just like reading from a cv or whatever

Poppy MardallOr it might be, you know, we've done lovely things. I remember we did a funeral for someone whose greatest love was their allotment. And the whole top of the coffin, rather than having a floral display, it was all vegetables from the allotment.

Carly OsmanOh, I love that.

Poppy MardallAnd then everybody took vegetables home and then they all shared the things they'd made. And, you know, that it it you actually don't need to be in a hotel on Park Lane with like Elton John on the piano in order for this thing to feel very powerful it can be the humblest simplest things that come with no cost that can send people home feeling like that was a flipping brilliant funeral

Carly OsmanLet's also talk about death in the workplace, because I think a statutory leave for a close relative, you get between, I think, three to five days. That isn't very long when you have lost someone you care about deeply. What do you think needs to change here?

Poppy MardallYeah. And then, you know, thinking of when it's your baby or when it's your child, which is there's no hierarchy on loss.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallBut I mean, like you could. There's always a place for policy and there's always a place for the law and there's always a place for kind of regulation. And I think that follows a cultural shift towards acknowledging that death and grief is part of life. Because I think the way this is happening in the workplace simply reflects our sense that death happens and then you you know go off and be sad for a couple of weeks and have the funeral. And then we kind of expect you to return exactly as you were before. And if you've spoken to anyone who's been through any significant grief, they'll say, i was never that person again. Like I'm not even the same person anymore.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallAnd And actually no amount of leave is gonna... you know, I'm interested in the leave and I'm interested in people's rights as I am with maternity as well. But I am probably more interested in how we culturally make more space for the transformational experiences that come at us through our life. And grief and death is one of them. You know, there are other ones too. Menopause is one, you know, is is the answer to menopause to kind of

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallGive women certain amounts of leave, probably, but it's also just about workplaces that acknowledge what's going on in that person's life and make space for it. So, you know, some of the best guidance I've seen for employers around bereavement is actually guidance that says to line managers, you know, this is such a, such a huge thing, and people need such different things from it. You know, I know lots of people who desperately needed to be surrounded by their colleagues in the wake of a death because it was the one solid life raft and the idea of this being sort of banished from work, you know, and and and just sort of staring at the wall at home would have been the least helpful thing.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallBut yeah, some acknowledgement of the vulnerability some encouragement, all the things we've already discussed, like, can the line manager name the person who's died and and say, you know, tell me about them. And where are you at? And what do you need? And can we put those anniversaries in the diary for a year's time so that we don't accidentally, you know, that person who's grieving doesn't accidentally have a kind of disciplinary hearing on the anniversary of their mum's death, you know?

Carly OsmanYeah

Poppy MardallYes, we want guaranteed leave but I think we just want much more compassionate workplaces where colleagues don't reflect society and not mention what's happened yeah

Carly OsmanAgain, it's being human. It's having empathy like I would with a friend or like I would in a situation, just actually divorce yourself from the weird dynamics and actually go, this is a person. Let's talk to people like a people.

Poppy MardallYeah what do you need what do you

Carly OsmanWhat do you need?

Poppy MardallYou know, I've i've had a colleague in the past who had a really tricky bereavement. And because the line manager was so good at communicating with her, we got really, really clear instructions as a team that like she she didn't want to be she didn't want to be hugged. She didn't want to be, she wanted to be, you know, she actually didn't want that kind of like head tilt because everyone's different, you know?

Carly OsmanYeah. Yeah.

Poppy MardallSo it's not, I don't think there is one right way to do it, but yeah, it's being human and it's saying, We need to acknowledge that this thing has happened in their life and they they're going to go through a transformation and we need to be here for that.

Carly OsmanShould you actually then ask your employee, like, do you want the sympathy, the empathy and actually have the first day back? Let's talk about how this is going to work.

Poppy MardallYeah, I think it's I think the question is, what do you need? What do you need and what do you need and what do you need?

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallYou know, that isn't one conversation that happens. That's an ongoing conversation and being led and trusting that that person knows what's right for them and what's right this week might not be right next week.

Carly OsmanSo it's clear there's lots to change around the conversation of death. And I'd love to kind of hear from your perspective of someone who's been around death for the last 15 years. What have you learned and how, what have you learned in the sense of how has that changed and affected your life and the way you live your life?

Poppy MardallYes, it's really, I really hope this makes loads of people want to work in the death sphere as I answer this question, because that's the biggest, that's been the biggest impact that I hope it doesn't sound lofty. But it's like when you when you really tangibly understand that your life is limited, whether that's, you know, a day or decade or, you know, 50 more years, it completely transforms the way you think about that time. So to be clear, it doesn't yeah has not made me like a very contented, calm parent or a really wise friend.

Carly OsmanThank you.

Poppy MardallYou know i don't think it's done that. I think it's just examples would be like, I do not wait to do the things that matter. You know, so my parents are in their 70s. They're in good health. You know, i spend a lot of time with them because i I just know there's going to be a time where i can't. and where I'm gonna be really glad that I made the time now, even though life is chaos and my kids are small and my life is, you know, I'm constantly in a spin. Or like, you know, fights with my husband or whatever. Like it doesn't make me not fight, but it does make me kind of recognize and acknowledge that our time together has a shelf life. And I want that time to be meaningful. So that actually means having the fight, you know, because what am I waiting for? But yeah, I think it's a big thing of like getting out of your own way. And yeah, I think it means you can't distract yourself.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallWhich also has some downsides too, sometimes. or Not downsides. It can be, it can be and I think when you know you're going to die at some point and when you're surrounded by people who have died, you know, yesterday or last week, and some of those people have died way out of turn, you know, young people, there is just this kind of wake up call that this is, this is real. There is no, there is no plan B. There is no second run at this. So make the most of the time that you have. Yeah.

Carly OsmanOh, I love that. i think it's an amazing sentiment. And then my final question to you is, we again, we need to change this narrative around death. What can we do as individuals to make death less taboo?

Poppy MardallI mean, I want to keep it really simple. I think it's never, ever, ever miss an opportunity to have this discussion. So you don't necessarily even need to bring it up yourself. I think sometimes the assumption is like, I've got to go and be this pioneer that's kind of inserting this discussion in places where it's not wanted. No, it's it's like I was saying about your child, you know, that when a friend of yours has a terminal illness, when a friend of yours... when you hear they're grieving or that something terrible has happened in their life, it's just inch forward. You know, when someone incidentally says, listening to a song on the radio, jokily like, oh, I'd love this played at my funeral. you like these things are happening all the time is saying like, oh, that's interesting.

Carly OsmanYeah.

Poppy MardallLike what would the rest of you have? I think I'd have this. Like what else would you have at your funeral? You know, I, I love the idea that that some of us want to go out there and really like shake the tree and really kind of challenge our families and our communities to have these discussions. But you don't have to go that far. You can just take the opportunities that are already coming up day to day that we are accidentally inadvertently shutting down.

Carly OsmanYeah. Oh, love this. Thank you, Poppy. Thank you.

Poppy MardallThanks for having me. it's it's such a It's such an uplifting, inspiring conversation, I always find. So thank you for making space for it.

Carly OsmanPoppy, that was a good one.