Chaos as a Catalyst

Carly OsmanSarah, before we dive in, who are you?

SarahWho am I? I am Sarah McDermott, author of Chaos, the Art of Resilience, and I teach people how to pull pure gold out of life's messiest moments.

Carly OsmanYeah, that's cool. And I, yeah, I know that you'll, you'll land them, you'll nail them. And basically, it's all about my favourite bits in the book is what I'm going to ask you about. no So Sarah, before we dive in, I want to read you your opening statement. And i want to start the conversation around there.

SarahSo okay

Carly OsmanYes. When everything collapses, embrace the pain, lean into it, learn from it, Ride it like a wild dragon and it will, in the end, be the making of you.

SarahYes.

Carly OsmanThat me was the thing that I needed here at the time. So what was happening in your life that made you write chaos?

SarahWow. Well, that's the thing. There was a lot happening in my life at the time. So at the when it actually, the the moment, the moment that that book began, I was sat on a chair in a hospital waiting room, waiting to hear whether I had a potentially fatal diagnosis. and I was actually being tested for pancreatic cancer at the time. And as I sat there with the whole, you know, catastrophic thoughts in my head, everything falling down around me, I realised that I had 100% got myself into that position. You know, this this wasn't just something that I was destined to have through through ill health. This was the cumulative effect of six years of extreme stress, of striving, of driving, as trying to prove myself in this male-dominated industry in the property world, you know, hustling to get to the top. And, you know, at that moment on that chair, realised that really it had all been for nothing because, know, as As well as the fact that, you know, I could potentially lose my lose my life right then.

Carly OsmanThank you.

SarahAnd I was, you know, like you do as a mother, imagining telling your kids and all that kind of thing. It was heartbreaking. But i also at that moment was in financial crisis because we'd been defrauded earlier that year. And we were in the process of potentially losing the whole portfolio that I'd spent the the full six years building as well. And I just thought, this is not right. And that and that was my pivot moment, really. and started to think about, you know, how I'd kind of been in my head at the time, lured into this world, you know, sold this thing and go do this and then do this and do the other.

Carly OsmanYeah.

SarahAnd I realised that I'd come out of a quite happy job as a private investigator. And I jumped onto this treadmill to try and have a rich life of freedom. And really, I just jumped from one treadmill onto another treadmill. And and it was, you know, it was a shock. And I was angry and I could feel all this anger bubbling up inside of me. And as I did, I just felt compelled to write. So I picked out my phone and I love writing poetry. And I just wrote this poem and it just came out in this poetic some of my friends said it's like a rap actually you come out in a kind of poet poet poem rap onto my phone about everything that I thought was wrong with the business world everything that I thought was wrong with it and I sat there and I analyzed my own writing and I looked at it and i was like wow there was one word that stuck out to me in that poem and it was the word they

Carly OsmanI'm just going to go ahead see

SarahBecause it was they did this and they did that and they did the other all the way through. And I thought, hang on a minute here, Mrs. The they you. It's me. I have, yes, I have copied other people's models. I have done what I thought other people wanted me to do, but I am the one with the con control. I have been my own taskmaster. I've been the puppet master all along. And in that moment that I realised it was all me, I also realised I was the only one who could change it. And I took a little cross out of my bag. Sean had given me a little cross from Bethlehem in my bag and I was like, right, sat there with a wooden cross in my hand. And i sat there sobbing my heart out on that chair and I said a prayer to proper God in the sky. and asked for another chance, that begged and begged and begged another for another chance at life and said that, you know, if I could have this other chance, I'd live from joy, from fulfilment, I'd rewind everything that's that's happened to get me here, I'd look after my health, I'd lose weight, I'd spend more time with my kids again, I'd do the things that i love doing.

Carly OsmanThank you.

SarahI just realised how utterly un-me I was right in that moment, you know, because I'm just such a joyful fun loving person you know my favorite thing is to throw up parties and have lots of fun and it was funny actually because actually while I was sat on that chair as well I also got a message from my friend and Harrod and she just because I've been talking to her about how miserable and I was at the time and how everything wasn't going so well and she just sent me a message on whatsapp and it said Sarah you were born to party and flounce and I thought Damn right, lady. i was born to party and flounce. So I was like, God, I'll do more partying and flouncing and I'll bring all this into the business and I'll make life really fun and and it'll be amazing. And I will. write And then, yeah, that was the other thing. I thought, wow, do you know what? The one thing that I'd regret other than not spending enough time with my kids if I was going to die in three months is that I'd never written a book.

Carly OsmanThank

SarahI love writing. I've always adored writing. I've written my whole life. Even at school, I used to write the school plays all the time. I used to write poetry. i started throughout my whole life, so many books, never got much further than a couple of chapters on any of them. But everything from novels to cookery books to everything in between, loads of things. And I've just never done it. And I thought, I've got to do it. I've got to write a book. I've got to write a book. And I was like, right, I'm write a book from within the eye of the storm. I'm going to go into every single day now, knowing that I am facing... battles with receiverships, with finance companies, with investors, all sorts of not nice conversations.

Carly OsmanThere's only one thing that happens. It's good thing.

SarahWe were aware that we could lose everything at that moment, including our home.

Carly OsmanYou find that not good thing.

SarahAnd and I decided that I was going to go into it anyway with joy and with a smile and with the right attitude.

Carly OsmanIt's a good thing. thing.

SarahAnd no matter what how angry somebody is on the phone, to just go into it with love, turn that conversation around into a positive every time. And I thought, what will happen if I do that, how different will this be if I do that? And the so I thought, do you know what, this is a bit of an experiment here. I am the experiment and I'm throwing myself into this from within the eye of the storm as the experiment.

Carly OsmanYou

SarahAnd And I'm going to pick out all the lessons, all the insights, and I'm going to turn it into something that will help other people. And then I've done something great from this pain that I've inevitably got to go through. And that's what I did, you know, and then you've kind of like, I got the diagnosis back. It wasn't pancreatic cancer. I did have a few health issues. I had cysts on my liver. I had a fatty liver. I had stress induced gastritis, but nothing life threatening. everything was curable and I just went off and and I wrote the book and funnily enough must have been a couple of days after that hospital visit our little doggy Ralphie it was a bit of a giddy kipper anyway jumped up at a dog on the telly and smashed the tv just It just went smashed, brand new telly smashed on the floor. And we were like, right, we're in financial crisis. We can't afford to buy a new telly. So on an evening, rather than watching a couple of, you know, mind numbing episodes or something to switch me off from the that from all the mayhem, I'm going to write instead. So I wrote every single night and we didn't get a new telly until I'd finished writing the book.

Carly OsmanOh, that's amazing. There are so many things I want to unpick here. But firstly, i born to flounce and party. I mean, that would that be an epic thing to put on a gravestone or what at the end?

SarahYeah.

Carly OsmanYou mentioned something here about choice and agency. And you decided to take control of the situation and go, rather than seeing this as the end, I'm going to see this as the beginning. And in the book, you talk about the idea of a tooth fairy, or the truth fairy even. So people recognising when they've been avoiding the truth of a situation and and also taking that radical responsibility of myself. So moving away from, i suppose, victimhood into, OK, I've got myself in this situation. i'm going to have to be the one who is going to have to do something about us. Can you talk to me a bit more about that?

SarahYeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it is. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, the the the truth fairy is almost like and Pinocchio's Jiminy Cricket. You know, is your conscience who comes up and gives you a wallop around the face every so often when you need it. But yeah, I think that's the thing. So many people go through life and I've been guilty of this as well. Everybody does it. Go through life in, you know, just blaming the whole world, assuming that life happens to them. And blaming circumstances or whatever they feel they're lacking in in their lives or in themselves. They always, you know, it's the natural human condition is to apportion that blame to something or somebody or some world event, whatever it is, and you know. And that's really unempowering because that means that you have got no control over you or your life whatsoever. It means that everything and everybody controls your mood. So if it's going to rain today, you're going to be in a bad mood because it's the weather that does it.

Carly OsmanYes.

SarahYou know, and isn't that sad? and You know, if you can flip that around and you be in charge of everything... then you have got full control over your life. And it doesn't mean that you can control everything that's going to happen, but you can control the way that you react to it. So two people could have exactly the same circumstance. Two people could set off from the helm today, both miss the same bus, both fall over on the pavement and bang the knee. And that could be a really horrendous start for one of them. And they might come home and blame the world. Another person might think, oh, I'm a silly bugger. I've worn the wrong shoes. i shouldn't have done that. you know And they just get on and crack on and get the next bus and go and enjoy the day. It's perspective. It's about perspective as well. you know People see things in entirely different ways, don't they? But if you... blame the world and blame other people, you are giving away all of your power. If you accept accountability for everything, I mean, there's a lots of things that have happened in my life that I don't, you know, you wouldn't think, well, that was your fault, Sarah, you know, that wasn't your fault, like the fraudster, for example, who, you know, came into the business and that's, you know, nearly destroyed the whole business. and I could blame that whole thing on the fraudster, but I don't. I take accountability as the director of the business because, it's my business and if i do if I don't do that then I've got no way of controlling the outcome.

Carly OsmanWhat changes you and yourself when you start thinking like that and Taking that responsibility and that accountability and going, I can choose how to react. Do I respond to this situation or do I react? And they're two very different things. How does how does one do that?

SarahYeah, well it is just a choice. i mean you do you know don't Don't react. That's the thing. you know Just hold yourself. it's self cut You do have to you know a assert a little bit of self-control, especially when you've got things going on you know and that you know you can get quite heated. You might be having a bit of a to-do with somebody. Somebody's done you over or something or other.

Carly OsmanThank you.

SarahAnd you know The best way to deal with it is to take a step back And put yourself into a right space first. So I have a rule that I never, ever act from a place of negative energy. So if I'm feeling bit down or if somebody's really pissed me off and I'm, you know, you do, know everyone's human, you're still human, you don't deny the emotions, allow the pissed offness to be there. like let it out but on in private once it's gone get your physiology back to where it needs to be get yourself in a right space in the right frequency and then move forward and then deal with the situation because you know you just can't you can't basically operate from from a negative space and expect to get

SarahA positive outcome and sometimes we just have you know for no apparent reason you know you just have a down day i think you know as women we you know we're quite hormonal creatures and especially when you get into perimenopause there's always a couple of days where you just have no idea why but you just feel sad sometimes you can't stop crying sometimes you just want to murder everybody those are the days where you just basically keep yourself to yourself have a nice bath light a candle, eat some chocolate, read a book, watch you some crap on the TV that makes you laugh. Whatever it is, just don't go out on that day on a new date with a new person for the first time. Don't go out trying to raise finance. Don't, you know, just do something that's going to help you feel better. So the most important thing really in any situation, in any bad situation, is to make you feel better first. Because when you're in a space of good energy, you can use that and you can project it out and get the positive income that you require.

Carly OsmanThe book you talk about i suppose vibrational energy and being a match for the energy around what what does that mean

SarahYeah, well, basically, I mean, we're all, you know, we are all big bundles of energy. and we all We all have a frequency that we set on at any time. And it's funny, I think I do say this in the book, actually, it's funny how people believe in microwaves and radios. So we all know that we all know about frequencies. We all know that they exist. But because we can't see them, we don't really get it. But if you think about this, you know, when you walk into a room, it's a common saying you could cut the atmosphere with a knife, right? You walk into a room and you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. Nobody's said anything to you yet. You've just walked into the room. Nobody's even looked at you. But you know... there's a low energy in that room and it's because somebody's had a whatever to do earlier on or whatever and you just know that that's a bad energy so frequencies are real and they control how you think you know so if you're resonating on a low frequency you're going to react badly you're not going to see the right opportunities you know we can only attract what is on the same frequency as us at any time

Carly OsmanI I totally buy into this because I know when my frequency is high, things come to me. It just seems like I i magnetize. things and opportunities come and and just I just go through the world in a very different way. but I also know that I do the opposite. When I'm feeling low, i do tend to fall into a scarcity mindset and things just become harder and it just doesn't go to plan.

SarahYeah.

Carly OsmanMy question for you is when I'm in that state, how do I pull myself up into the higher frequency? Is that to do with movement or going into a room and dancing? like What do I need to do to switch that?

SarahYeah, absolutely that. Any of those things. Basically, the thing that you need to do, first of all, is not think about it. Don't worry about As soon as you start worrying about why you feel anxious or sad or down or whatever, you're going to a spiral further and further down because you're just adding worry on top of the already negative feelings. So... Don't worry about it. First of all, come to terms with it. Just admit it, accept it, and then say, right, we're goingnna feel better now. Come on. let's yeah So what is it that you love doing? Now, I am often take it myself off and I'll do a chanting meditation if that happens, and you know, because chanting actually does physically cause you to vibrate. you When you are chanting and making a noise, you are physically vibrating and it almost forces yourself into that frequency. but getting out for a walk in the fresh air is amazing. Going for a run, dancing, banging out some house tunes from the 1990s and really going for it like you're in an old school rave. Anything like that. Obviously I never do that.

Carly OsmanIt's all the things we know that we should do as well. But I think and I'm going to use kind of case W1 here, but I have a tendency when I'm in this lower energy to sink lower because I will avoid doing all of those things because I'm normally in a, I'm a really busy person. I need to get my head down. I need to push through, but that's the antithesis of actually what I need to be doing, isn't it?

SarahYeah, because exactly. Because when youre when you're in that negative and when you're going, I'm really busy, I'm really busy, what you'll be doing is just manifesting a load of shite, basically. Everything that you're producing there will be producing something that you really don't want. So it'll just go wrong. So you're better off just thinking, right, the only thing we need to do right now is feel better. just feel better. And sometimes that actually means just accepting sadness for a whole day and having a right good cry. There's no shame in that.

Carly OsmanYeah.

SarahIt's really good for you It's really cathartic. I'm a crier. I love having a good cry every so often. and You know, don't keep emotions in, let them out. Because again, holding it in is only going to come back out again. It's not really gone. You need to let out. So have a cry, have a scream, rant to yourself about whoever it is that's pissed you off, write a letter to them, and then tear it up. do Get it out, get it out, do whatever you need to feel better, and then treat yourself, you know, treat yourself to whatever you did, you know, you deserve and you need at that time to feel better, whether that's the walk, The soak in the bath, the trip to the gym, going out with your friends for a nice meal, whatever it may be, just do something to feel better.

Carly OsmanThank

SarahWhen you feel better, when you feel confident, when you feel calm again, you know, then you're in the right space to take the right action. And and not, you know, often it's other people that are depending on us to take these actions, especially when you're a business owner. You think, well, I can't just not do it because nobody will do it. and run but bla You are going to serve your whole team better if you wait until you're in a better mood to deal with things.

Carly OsmanYeah, again, it's this radical responsibility, isn't it? Of taking control of yourself.

SarahYeah.

Carly OsmanThere was one part in the book that I had a oof moment. And this was around emotional patterns and pattern recognition. When you start going, oh, this is the way I respond time and time again.

SarahYeah.

Carly OsmanFor me, it uncovered some things I had around stories about money, stories about working really hard and hard equating to success. Can you talk me a bit more about that concept and actually how it is a powerful enabler once we start seeing where we've come from and why we're reacting in a certain way?

SarahYeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's some amazing, actually. You know, the first time I did a full patterning workshop, which is which was a four-day event, it's pretty intense when you do a full patterning workshop. and It's bonkers. It blows your mind. They actually have to have, like, trauma coaches there to help people because some people don't deal with it very well at the end because it can – The thing is, you kind of realise that you've been a puppet.

SarahYou've been a puppet to your seven-year-old self, usually. So most of our most of our ingrained beliefs are taken in before the age of seven years old. And then we'll replay them out time and time again. So you might think, oh, yeah, I remember a childhood incident when I was like 13 or 14. That must have been where the trauma started. It won't have been. When you actually do it fully and dive deeper in, you will always be able to trace it back to something. And it can be something tiny. It can be something really small. But to that child, to your little five, six, seven-year-old self at the time, it was a major thing. And that one thing has carried on.

SarahSo it could be that somebody, you know, your brother pinched your ice cream off you when you were five years old. And that's transpired into when you were 13 and your best friend pinched your boyfriend off you. Yeah. And then it could be when you get to 46 and somebody comes in and defrauds your business and you lose your home, but your whole business, all from this ice cream being stolen when you were five years old. And it's it's funny how... So the the pattern isn't just the one thing. It's not just that one thing. It's the pattern is the whole series of events that you create around that. So you create like a little story narrative around that. And then when you get older, further down the line, and you look at it again, you start to see the same story building up around this other event. And then again, and we've all got multiple patterns. So we've all got multiples of these little stories around this one belief that then get like basically cast out and cast out and cast out onto the screens of our lives as we go through adulthood. And you can't really stop them coming, but what you can do is you can recognise them. So you can recognise and think, right, okay, so when you do a patterning workshop, it takes you into this each step of your pattern and it usually ends with a catastrophic event. So one of mine when I did mine, the catastrophic event that always ended up at the end was shame for me.

Carly OsmanYeah.

SarahIt always ended up with me being in shame and that was the emotion so you know my my childhood event had a series of steps that led to the shame and then it was amazing to see how a few years later different circumstances but we named the steps with the same names to get to the same point of shame and then again in early adulthood step step step shame in later adulthood step step step shame And it's just the same thing.

Carly OsmanYeah. And this is what found fascinating. It was like suddenly had a zoom out of a helicopter view and going, oh, and that happened. And then that happened and that happened. And as you said, entirely different life stage. But it was the same thing. And i and the worst thing was i reacted in the same way in each of these instances. But I'm hoping now that I've started to recognize actually what are those things are and and whilst I can't control what's going to be in the future hopefully knowing makes it a bit easier and that's what I've kind of got from your book is if we if we prepare to open it and talk about it and and I suppose work through these things it actually doesn't become this big scary catalystic thing it could become the catalyst for our next step our next action

SarahNarrow Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? It becomes interesting. you know like This might sound really strange, but suddenly that thing that leads to shame, you know some catastrophic event for me, now... I look at and I go, in the pattern. This is exciting. What's go to happen next? And it's really interesting. You can almost zoom out of your own self and look in as if you're a casual observer. And when you're a casual or observ a casual observer of life, it's a lot more pleasurable than when you feel like you're in there with life happening to you.

Carly OsmanYeah and I think that's an amazing thing it's like you letting life happen to you or is it happening for you and if you choose it to happen for you you're in the driver's seat and you get to say I'm not going to let this thing define me.

SarahYeah.

Carly OsmanI'm actually going to let it be my unlock or I'm going to let it take me in a whole different direction that I never thought was possible for me.

SarahYeah, that's it. Exactly. And that's exactly what, you know, I did with chaos, really. You know, that that chaos, that moment in the hospital, I could have just gone down and sunk into a pit of despair. But I've actually chosen to take control of it and orchestrated it so that it's, you know, now I'm, you know, living my best life. I'm an author now, which has been my lifelong dream. And I wouldn't have been if I hadn't used that chaos and converted it into a book. Yeah,

Carly OsmanSo if someone who's sitting here in the middle of their chaos right now, what is the first step they can do? Because I'm imagining them sitting there, everything feels hard and overwhelming. And then doesn't when you're in that moment, that there never seems to be a clear path. There's not a natural next step. What what do I do in that visceral moment?

SarahYeah so so there is a clear path. There is a next step, but you can't see it while you're in that moment. That's the thing. That is the thing. You are cloaked by fear. You are cloaked by anxiety and you just can't see it. So the first thing when you're in that state is literally to feel good, to reset your physiology, to do those things that we've just spoken about, you know. And and then from a calm space, we start to move forward. And, that you know, the best thing once you're in that calm space, the best thing that you can do then is to look at it, whatever it is, and think, why has this happened? And what is in it for me now? What is the reason for it? Why is it doing this for me? So what is the opportunity here? So, you know, first of all, why has it happened? What part have I played in it? It's usually that whatever it is, you know, whether it's a relationship breakdown or it could be a business falling apart or whatever it is, it's usually because there's a massive misalignment somewhere. And this is where we need to get honest. And most people who are in a business that has collapsed or a relationship that has collapsed have been putting up with it.

Carly OsmanYou

SarahThey've been putting up with it for a long time. in denial of the fact that it's not right. And this is where we have to get out of denial and get into admission, you know, admit that actually heartbreaking as it is right now, rejected as I feel right now, upset as I am right now, this is for the best. Yeah. And then look, you know, well, why did I allow myself to get into this situation in the first place? How have let it go on for so long? Let's get honest here. Let's look at all the people pleasing that we've been doing. Let's look at all the Throwing ourselves into things that are not really our lane. Let's look at all that kind of thing that we've been doing. Let's look at the things that we've been denying within ourselves for such a long time, you know. And let's then re-orchestrate this thing, this situation to make it better, to make life better in every direction.

Carly OsmanOh, I love that. Why do you think people don't? Do you think it's because of those feelings that you have to sit on the uncomfortability? don't know what's next, the shame, this the feeling. so I'll use just a a relationship breaking down. I'm going to i'm gonna have to sit in these feelings of uncomfort as part of the moving through bit. Do you think people actually are so scareded scared of these emotions that they would avoid rather avoid it than go head first into it?

SarahWhat do you mean with the change? Or do you mean ending the relationship?

Carly OsmanEnding relationship, yeah.

SarahYeah, yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, people, what what is it we are just people pleasers. As children, we are brought up to please people because, you know, we constantly look to adults to tell us that we're okay. Oh, you look beautiful today, darling. You know, put a pretty frock on so everybody can tell you you look beautiful. We live for being praised today. And if we feel like we've got to say something that somebody doesn't like, that's exactly the opposite of what we've been conditioned to do all our lives. So we're all people pleasers, not pleasing ourselves. So we're all running around like resentful little sausages, really. never Never getting what we want, never saying what we want, all afraid of each other. Whereas if everybody just came out and told the truth, it'd be like, well, I don't really like you either, thanks. Bye.

Carly OsmanBut it's true, and I think at the heart of them, you talk about this in the book, about being peanuts.

SarahThe

Carly OsmanAnd some people loved love peanuts. Other people hate peanuts. Some people are allergic to peanuts.

SarahYeah

Carly OsmanBut peanut doesn't think any different. They're just a peanut.

SarahExactly yeah

Carly OsmanSo...

SarahJust carry on peanutting, you know. that's that's so It's funny, that's that out the the people that have pre-read the book, yourself included, that's that's so one that's resonated with a lot of people, that penan because that is about people-pleasing, and I kind of knew it would, because everybody does it. Everybody does it.

Carly OsmanSo I'm kind of hearing from you in order, we should embrace all the chaos. So chaos is inevitable.

SarahYes.

Carly OsmanIt's going to happen to all of us in many different guises. But rather than be drawn into the fear and the shame, it's actually an opportunity to reset and figure out what next what's next.

SarahYes.

Carly OsmanBut in order to get to the what's next, we have to face into the uncomfort and we have to be prepared to not be liked, to speak our truth, to say what we think. And then that's when the magic happens.

SarahAbsolutely, yeah. Absolutely, of course it is. That's where you get massive growth by walking, you know. if you've got a rain cloud coming after you, turn around and walk into it. Boom, you know. Fling your clothes off and walk into it naked. Yeah.

Carly OsmanBye.

SarahGet rained all over, you know, just feel it, just feel it. And this is the thing, this is this is what the the thing that I thought that, you know, when I thought I'm going to go into this, I'm going to feel the pain, it's going to be painful, it's going to be uncomfortable. And I'm going to relish every single moment of that feeling of pain, because I'm so grateful to be alive, you know, just that, All of it, it's all just part of life. It's all just verification that we are living and we're well and we're here and we're purposeful. If you just go into that and feel, don't be afraid to feel every feeling. It's okay. It's okay to feel that way. It's okay to feel uncomfortable. It's really good to feel uncomfortable. And it's good to cry and it's good to shout sometimes and it's good to let people shout at you sometimes and just stand there and take it. It's all good. It's all just part of life. So just do it, you know.